What exactly does "Second Division" mean in NA?

[strobe_z]

I'm not really suggesting the NASL has a lot of hope to compete with MLS, the point really was that nothing beyond the economic realities of running a second division league is stopping the NASL from fulfilling its potential.

I have to say I have a lot of faith in the NASL. As someone who supported the Aviators and kept an eye on D2 since the A-League days, there is a palpable difference in terms of the quality. I think if it can demonstrate an ability to run a stable quality league, at some point they need to partner with MLS (even if the MLS branding comes with it). It would lend a lot of respectability to all the operations.

Man would it be nice to get to hate teams from Victoria, Calgary and Winnipeg too.

[ted]

I think if it can demonstrate an ability to run a stable quality league, at some point they need to partner with MLS (even if the MLS branding comes with it). It would lend a lot of respectability to all the operations.

Stability in both a business sense and in quality, is essential right now. Going forward they will have to come to some sort of understanding with MLS and we can hope it will be a positive for everyone.

Man would it be nice to get to hate teams from Victoria, Calgary and Winnipeg too.

We'd love to hate you too. And we did for that exhibition game back in 2010.

[stevensandor]

First off, before anyone dreams of pro-rel in a new US/Canadian first and second division, remember that North America has quite different business laws and practices which, at the time, make pro-rel impossible.

It's called territorial rights, people. The idea that one team can have an entire market to itself, and has the power to cut its own local broadcast deals and be able to black out other broadcasts in its region. It's protected from having another team open up shop across town.

And, because of that, most major markets have but one team.

This doesn't happen in the rest of the world. London has many, many teams. As does Mexico City. Buenos Aires. Tokyo. Moscow. Because of this, promotion and relegation doesn't disturb broadcasters, rightsholders, because they know, because of the law of averages, those major markets will always be represented in the top flights of their leagues. Trust me, if there was but one London team (or even just two), one Moscow team or one Rome team, there wouldn't be promotion and relegation.

So, if you created a two- or three-division system in North America, how would this sell to your sponsors? "Yeah, Chicago and Toronto are being relegated, while Carolina and Edmonton are coming up."

As well, what would happen if two American teams were relegated while two Canadian teams came up?

This doesn't happen in the rest of the world because the major markets have multiple teams. Lose one? Big deal.

So, until we see someone challenge the notion of territorial rights in North America, something which would have repercussions for the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB, promotion and relegation is a moot point.

[alberta white]

Also to note Steve; The game roots were established in the UK well before ANY form of broadcast media existed.
Also when it (Broardcast media) did come into existance it was strictly controled visa vie its commercial potential.
For many years the ONLY Live game allowed on TV was the FA CUP final.

Not so the case in North America.

On the Pro/rel front. given the choice some of the English Premier League owners may want rid of it. But as we see this month, When the Title is all but done with, the fun starts at the other end of the table!

Take that away from English football and you kill its culture.


*EDIT*

Forgot one thing, The reuse of the Olympic Stadium has indeed become a territorial issue involving Tottenhan, West Ham and Leighton Orient (WHO?).
Not withstanding the machinations involved with hoosing the "rightful tenant" goind forward, there is also the problem of the two big clubs setting up shop on Orient's Manor!

[ted]

So, until we see someone challenge the notion of territorial rights in North America, something which would have repercussions for the NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB, promotion and relegation is a moot point.

I think you may need to do some more research. The NFL does TV rights as a corporation not by teams. This is the main reason that the NFL is so successful and is able to maintain teams in smaller media markets.

So no, cooperative TV deals that every team gets a slice of is not only NOT impossible but is the model of perhaps the most successful TV sports deal in North America.

And part of the discussion of a far-future where pro-rel could happen is predicated on having at least as many NASL teams as MLS. IF we had two full-time professional leagues running successfully with 20 teams each then joining them into a two-division league (D1 & 2) would be possible and, to many people, preferable to a two-conference league (East - West).

But in any case, how about we worry about getting to the point of having 40 successful, full-time professional teams in North America first before we start fantasizing about how to merge them into one.

[alberta white]

^ now that last line, Ted, make A LOT of sense.

[stevensandor]

Ted: Yes, NFL does negotiate three national TV deals.. with REGIONAL blackout stipulations. So, local markets still influence what gets put o TV. And if the Seahawks are 0-14, their game still plays in the Seattle market rather than a battle between two top-flight teams.

And the NFL also cedes territorial rights to all of its teams... it won't plop an expansion team in Chicago, for example, without the Bears saying yeah or nay first.

Remember, because each of the North American leagues have a mix of somewhat artificial equalizers (drafts, salary caps), they tend to stick together. When MLS had its labour strife back in 2010, Don Garber and co. were hearing from all of the other leagues. They were asked not to set any strange precedents that would influence the other leagues' business models. When NHL had labour issues, all the leagues sent lawyers to the offices on the Avenue of the Americas. When the NBA had issues, the same. And the commissioners are portable. An NBA guy took over the NHL. An NFL guy moved to MLS.

MLS doesn't exist in a vacuum.

And, in the past, when I have spoken with Garber, he has said on more than one occasion that FIFA understand the "unique" makeup of MLS... and that it won't apply that 20-team standard to North America. That message has repeatedly been issued by MLS.

[ted]

Steve: I know you are new here so let me bring you up to speed. I have been arguing that pro/rel is not appropriate to the NW soccer landscape for years (A New CSL, 1999; Canada United, 2000). I have no illusions that it will happen.

I have just been arguing that it is technically possible and that there may actually be a business case to be made that a two-tier system would be beneficial to both the development of the game and the bottom line of the owners.

The chance of anyone with $$ actually bothering to really consider it? 0.001%

Not like those odds have ever shut me up before.

[-Hammer-]

I'd really like to say, it would probably make more sense for a Canadian 2nd Division, if only because you could really save on travel costs. It would also make sense to run it like the CHL, have it be three leagues (Western, Ontario, Quebec/East Coast) and then the winner and supporter's shield winner of each league advances to a six team final. Then the winner of that gets the #4 position in the Canadian Championship. You also have a perfect MLS player loaning setup, where Vancouver can draw from the Western teams, TFC can draw from the Ontario teams and Montreal can draw from the Quebec/East Coast teams.

But that requires a lot of owners, which we don't have in Canada yet. Lets see what happens with NASL for now and if it reaches the point that it's making money, we could see if we could get enough owners to make a Canadian 2nd division because right now, NASL is a short term expansion for Canadian soccer because of the USSF restriction on 75% US teams.

[Macksam]

So no, cooperative TV deals that every team gets a slice of is not only NOT impossible but is the model of perhaps the most successful TV sports deal in North America.

If it could work for any other North American league besides the NFL, MLS is it.