July 29: TFC vs. Puerto Rico Islanders (R)

[Duane Rollins]

How about we talk about a game in this forum? TFC plays its home leg of the preliminary round of the CCL a week today.

What does Toronto need to do to advance past a tough Islanders side (IMO the best team in USL-1). Will Toronto play a first-choice line-up, or, like other MLS teams have done in the past, prioritize league play?

Thoughts?

[Med_Hat_FC]

Well, with DeRo not playing in the All-Star game, I think they will play an 80% first team line-up. Maybe they will give Edwards the start, especially to rest Frei between two tough road matches.

[jonovision]

quote:Originally posted by Med_Hat_FC

Well, with DeRo not playing in the All-Star game, I think they will play an 80% first team line-up. Maybe they will give Edwards the start, especially to rest Frei between two tough road matches.

If they play what is clearly a second choice lineup, they will not win. That's why I believe they'll take the competition seriously.

[AvroArrow]

If they win this series, are they not guaranteed 3 more home games in group play?

3 more games to sell tickets, beer, and memorabilia without having to pay an additional cent in players' salaries. My bet is MLSE makes sure they have close to a full strength squad.

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by AvroArrow

If they win this series, are they not guaranteed 3 more home games in group play?

3 more games to sell tickets, beer, and memorabilia without having to pay an additional cent in players' salaries. My bet is MLSE makes sure they have close to a full strength squad.


The MLSE only cares about money thing is way overblown, but, yes...it would mean three more home dates. Although they won't be part of the ST package (it would be interesting to see how the first game would sell as TFC would only have, at most, two weeks to sell it (and a good portion of the crowd at a TFC game is clueless to what the CCL is).

I bet there will be a lot of youth groups at a CCL group stage game...

[MexTFC]

I think TFC will have its hands full with this team, especially at BMO (which seems ironic) MediaGuy could probably speak to the Islanders road style of play better than I, but I do recall them being a bunker team. Toronto really seems to struggle against this style of play on the BMO turf. Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to break the PR Islanders down? If you were CC, what strategy/tactics would you use in this game?

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by MexTFC

I think TFC will have its hands full with this team, especially at BMO (which seems ironic) MediaGuy could probably speak to the Islanders road style of play better than I, but I do recall them being a bunker team. Toronto really seems to struggle against this style of play on the BMO turf. Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to break the PR Islanders down? If you were CC, what strategy/tactics would you use in this game?


They threw nine behind the ball in the CCL last year and were deadly on the counter. Got some brilliant goalkeeping too.

You're right; this is a bad match-up for Toronto. What's bit TFC in the ass in the V-Cup has been dealing with Vancouver's more direct, organized game. Puerto Rico will bring that same sort of look.

I do, obviously, think Toronto can win this. But I won't be comfortable if they go south with anything less than a two-goal lead. This might be a game where a guy like Gerba, who can bury a half chance, can really make a difference.

[coppercanuck]

My guess is TFC will field a full strength side and I agree that PRI will bunker. TFC can't really through the 'kitchen sink' at them like they did against Montreal but they need to play a smart 2-leg series. I'd look for 0-0 or 1-1.

[tmcmurph]

Just don't take the PRI for granted. They are a quality side with a lot of counter attacking and good control. Good luck to TFC on this one.

[Sam]

What is the general consensus among TFC fans is the game more important than the average league game?

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by leafdolfan

What is the general consensus among TFC fans is the game more important than the average league game?


SG fans - yes

General fans - no

[Sam]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by leafdolfan

What is the general consensus among TFC fans is the game more important than the average league game?


SG fans - yes

General fans - no


Would you personally rather have TFC win the MLS Cup of the Champions League?

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by leafdolfan


quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by leafdolfan

What is the general consensus among TFC fans is the game more important than the average league game?


SG fans - yes

General fans - no


Would you personally rather have TFC win the MLS Cup of the Champions League?


I'm not sure winning the CCL is realistic, so I'd have to say that I would "rather" win the MLS Cup, as it's the championship of the league TFC plays in. However, I want to see Toronto get to the group stage of the tournament because it would provide a great test and some entertaining football. And I want MLS teams to take the CCL seriously. I’ll have lots to say if TFC doesn’t play a first choice line-up here.

TFC has been drawn into a very tough group, so the quarters are going to be hard to get to. But, that would be perfect - a March game at BMO!

[Mr.Impact]

If TFC fields a second choice line-up, they will be bounced on their ass. Colin Clarke will have his team prepared and well organized. He is a very capeable manager, and will not hesitate to make adjustments when necessary.

PR will have Haitian Internationals Fabrice Noel and James Marcellin available to play. Christain Arrieta their right back is the leading scorer in USL play. Their weakness is their center backs, big but not very mobile. Bill Gaudette is excellent in nets. Look for them to look for the counters.

[Rudi]

Why does anyone think TFC would be fielding a second-choice lineup? Did they do so in the V-Cup?

The very fact that DeRo is skipping the All-Star Game is proof enough that Toronto will be taking these games seriously.

[coppercanuck]

The CCL is a new-ish event. It will take some time for it to build a strong base. If building a stronger Canadian pro system is the plan, TFC needs to get past the group stage. The media will take notice and other potential owners may see the benefit from getting into USL-1 over MLS (a cheaper option to play TFC a couple of times per season).

How do you rank the trophies? MLS Cup, Supporters Shield, Voyageurs Cup, CONCACAF Champions League. For me the CCL has to be the major aim, it will put the club on one of the biggest stages possible.

[Cheeta]

Does anyone even know what TFC is going to look like a week from now?

Players coming in, players come back from injury. Might actually be an awkward time for TFC to be starting their CCL run against a pretty sound 1st Division side.

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

Why does anyone think TFC would be fielding a second-choice lineup? Did they do so in the V-Cup?

The very fact that DeRo is skipping the All-Star Game is proof enough that Toronto will be taking these games seriously.


They might, if they under estimate the Islanders, which would be a huge mistake.

[Rudi]

PR is better than both Montreal and Vancouver, and TFC didn't underestimate either of those teams.

[redhat]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

PR is better than both Montreal and Vancouver, and TFC didn't underestimate either of those teams.


All I know was that DDR's intensity in the final match against the
Impact was enough proof that TFC was dead serious about the Voyageurs
Cup and the CCL.

[Mr.Impact]

That is correct, they didn't underestimate both teams. They won't be playing Puerto Rico's "C" side either.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Impact

That is correct, they didn't underestimate both teams. They won't be playing Puerto Rico's "C" side either.

What is your point?

TFC beat both teams' A-side in the V-Cup as well.

[Mr.Impact]

My point is that Im responding to Media Guys first post in this thread, where he wondered if Toronto will be fielding a first choice line-up, or will they imitate other MLS teams who prioritize league play and get bounced early.

[MexTFC]

Does anyone have thoughts on the best way for TFC to play against PR? If you were CC, what strategy would you use?

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by MexTFC

Does anyone have thoughts on the best way for TFC to play against PR? If you were CC, what strategy would you use?


------------- Frei ---------------

Wynne--Garcia--Serioux--Brennan

------------Robinson-----------

Vitti-------Guevara-----Dero

------Gerba--------Barrett


Having one extra mid back to defend against the counter will be crucial hence Robinson even though I think he has not played that great recently.

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by MexTFC

Does anyone have thoughts on the best way for TFC to play against PR? If you were CC, what strategy would you use?

Play your game and let PRI worry about what they are going to do.

[Tuscan]

^ I agree. They need to make lots of use on the wings, see if they can give DeRo space. He played in the CCL last year with Huston, and he was one of their better players throughoutt the competition. Now that he's playing for his home club I'm sure the slight bit of extra motivation must be there for him.

I assume they will rest Frei and go with Edwards. Edwards showed he is capable last night against River Plate's reserve side (unless it's a penalty [B)]). I hope they aren't foolish enough to rest a ton of players. Puerto Rico showed last year that they are not to be taken lightly. If CC and Dasovic put out foolish line-ups, TFC will be going home early from the competition.

[El Hombre]

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

I assume they will rest Frei and go with Edwards.

I'm no keeper so forgive the possibly heretical question, but how much rest does a keeper need, really? Especially a 23 year-old one.

I figured they gave Edwards a start last night because it was as good an opportunity as any to get him some quality minutes and shake off the rust rather than for the specific reason of giving Frei a rest.

I hope TFC go all out for this one.

[Tuscan]

I saw TFC starting Edwards last night as a sign they are planning on using him in upcoming games. As Frei is the #1 I assume he will be starting in the league games and Edwards will be getting the starts vs. Puerto Rico. If Frei and co. all start vs. PRI, it will definitely signal TFC's intent on going deep into the competition (which they'd be crazy not to go for regardless).

[Lord Bob]

I think Edwards probably just played to give him some match practice in case Frei injures himself. I wouldn't read into it.

[TFCRegina]

This team is better than a lot of the MLS sides. Puerto Rico is stacked with ex-MLSers who made the mistake of being greedy and getting cut for this. The Manager is solid as well. TFC needs to bury PR at home and then go back to PR and fight for a draw.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by TFCRegina

TFC needs to bury PR at home and then go back to PR and fight for a win.

FYP.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by TFCRegina

This team is better than a lot of the MLS sides. Puerto Rico is stacked with ex-MLSers who made the mistake of being greedy and getting cut for this. The Manager is solid as well. TFC needs to bury PR at home and then go back to PR and fight for a draw.


The ex-MLS players of Puerto Rico didn't get cut because they were greedy but left the league in favour of USL because MLS doesn't pay well throughout its payroll and is very top heavy salary wise. This is what MLS will have to correct if it is to become a true 1st division and the reason why USL teams are competitive with MLS teams and often beat them. If MLS raises its salary cap a million and uses that million to pay the 7th to 20th player they will then be far superior to USL and have some parity and depth in their teams.

I think this tie is 50/50. TFC has more star players but the Islanders are more solid throughout the lineup and play better as a team. They also have a better coach than TFC in Colin Clarke (the guy I hope the Impact will hire if they ever fire NDS).

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by leafdolfan


quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by leafdolfan

What is the general consensus among TFC fans is the game more important than the average league game?


SG fans - yes

General fans - no




Would you personally rather have TFC win the MLS Cup of the Champions League?




My Personal choice: Champions Cup

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly


quote:Originally posted by TFCRegina

This team is better than a lot of the MLS sides. Puerto Rico is stacked with ex-MLSers who made the mistake of being greedy and getting cut for this. The Manager is solid as well. TFC needs to bury PR at home and then go back to PR and fight for a draw.


The ex-MLS players of Puerto Rico didn't get cut because they were greedy but left the league in favour of USL because MLS doesn't pay well throughout its payroll and is very top heavy salary wise. This is what MLS will have to correct if it is to become a true 1st division and the reason why USL teams are competitive with MLS teams and often beat them. If MLS raises its salary cap a million and uses that million to pay the 7th to 20th player they will then be far superior to USL and have some parity and depth in their teams.

I think this tie is 50/50. TFC has more star players but the Islanders are more solid throughout the lineup and play better as a team. They also have a better coach than TFC in Colin Clarke (the guy I hope the Impact will hire if they ever fire NDS).

A question for you Grizzly - How many TFC players do you think make less than $50,000? Without looking it up, answer here. I'll post the correct figure later.

Here is a list of seven TFC players that do not see much time. How many do you think would be out of place in USL? Give your reasons.

Brian Edwards
Gabe Gala
Emmanuel Gomez
Frad Ibrahim
Amadou Sanyang
Marco Velez
O’Brian White

[Cheeta]

You know I wouldn't be surprised if the Big Heads upstairs at BMO Field are super keen on CCL. They are in effect two matches away from going into the group stage of the touney.

They're within reach of bringing 3 playoff matches to BMO against international clubs. Bit of prestege attached to that. Especially as the MLS playoffs aren't a sure thing just yet. And regardless of what happens with MLS this year, should TFC fall short of making the playoffs or stumble in them,a CCL group stage appearance can easily be spun in a very positive fashion.

As to PR, fu'k em. Cummins should get the lads to pin the ears back and just go right at them. See how they well they handle that.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by Grizzly


quote:Originally posted by TFCRegina

This team is better than a lot of the MLS sides. Puerto Rico is stacked with ex-MLSers who made the mistake of being greedy and getting cut for this. The Manager is solid as well. TFC needs to bury PR at home and then go back to PR and fight for a draw.


The ex-MLS players of Puerto Rico didn't get cut because they were greedy but left the league in favour of USL because MLS doesn't pay well throughout its payroll and is very top heavy salary wise. This is what MLS will have to correct if it is to become a true 1st division and the reason why USL teams are competitive with MLS teams and often beat them. If MLS raises its salary cap a million and uses that million to pay the 7th to 20th player they will then be far superior to USL and have some parity and depth in their teams.

I think this tie is 50/50. TFC has more star players but the Islanders are more solid throughout the lineup and play better as a team. They also have a better coach than TFC in Colin Clarke (the guy I hope the Impact will hire if they ever fire NDS).

A question for you Grizzly - How many TFC players do you think make less than $50,000? Without looking it up, answer here. I'll post the correct figure later.

Here is a list of seven TFC players that do not see much time. How many do you think would be out of place in USL? Give your reasons.

Brian Edwards
Gabe Gala
Emmanuel Gomez
Frad Ibrahim
Amadou Sanyang
Marco Velez
O’Brian White



Not here to play your games. According to the salary figures released at the start of the year TFC has 6 players under $50 000. 5 between $50 000 and $100 000 and 10 above $100 000. If you include Gomez and Sanyang then it would be 8 under $50 000. New England for example has 11 players under $50 000 and two others only slightly above it. KC also has 11 under $50 000.

Of your list I think Edwards and Gala would be good USL players but then again they could both be MLS starters as well. Velez was a crap player in USL and is a crap player in MLS. The others I haven't seen play. On the other hand how many TFC players would be above USL level? I would only say in order of ability Guevara, Serioux, DeRo and Frei. Maybe Dichio and Brennan but both are starting to slow down. Certainly some others would be good to very good USL players but I am talking about those who are a cut above USL and there are not that many. In talking about the level of USL I am of course not considering Austin, Cleveland and Minnesota who are really below the level of the rest of the league this year.

[Duane Rollins]

I'm not playing any games. There are five players that make less than $50,000 - And that includes the Gambians and Brian Edwards, who makes $1,500 less than $50,000. Plus one of TFC's poverty line guys -- Nana -- is a regular starter. It's that second column you have to look at Grizz. That’s how much they actually take home.

On a top end USL roster there are 4-5 guys that could play cover roles on most MLS teams. MAYBE 1-2 of those could start. How many USL players make more than $50,000?

My point is here that your thinking is flawed. The bottom 10 guys on TFC make as much, if not more, than the majority of guys on a USL-1 team.

[Grizzly]

If that is the case then why have quite a number of MLS players left in favour of USL? Several have stated publicly that they got better offers from the USL than MLS. As TFCRegina rightly pointed out, Puerto Rico is full of former MLS players and you will see next week that they have the quality to play MLS. A lot of guys at that salary level will prefer USL to MLS even if USL is only offering $10 000 a year more. If MLS teams were to offer these players $10 000 more than USL the overall level of MLS would improve dramatically. New England alone has 9 players making under $35 000 even in the 2nd column. As I have said before MLS is top heavy and spends most of its money on the top players and much less on the suporting cast. Looking at the TFC salary figures though one certainly sees that they are really overpaying a lot of players compared to what they contribute on the field though Nana is a bargain at $34 000 and Gala would be as well if they ever played him.

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If that is the case then why have quite a number of MLS players left in favour of USL?


I would like you to provide me a list of these players.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If that is the case then why have quite a number of MLS players left in favour of USL? Several have stated publicly that they got better offers from the USL than MLS. As TFCRegina rightly pointed out, Puerto Rico is full of former MLS players and you will see next week that they have the quality to play MLS.

Have you looked at the list of former MLSers Puerto Rico has on their team?

Only Dominic Mediate got anything close to regular playing time when he was in DC, and even he was hardly a standout. It's obvious that they joined PR for playing time and not just for money (although I hope Kyle Veris makes more at PR than he did in LA).

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If that is the case then why have quite a number of MLS players left in favour of USL? Several have stated publicly that they got better offers from the USL than MLS. As TFCRegina rightly pointed out, Puerto Rico is full of former MLS players and you will see next week that they have the quality to play MLS.

Have you looked at the list of former MLSers Puerto Rico has on their team?

Only Dominic Mediate got anything close to regular playing time when he was in DC, and even he was hardly a standout. It's obvious that they joined PR for playing time and not just for money (although I hope Kyle Veris makes more at PR than he did in LA).


Yes but where I criticize the MLS is the starters from 7 to 11 and the depth players. A very typical scenario is a young player joins an MLS team, makes peanuts, shows that he has decent skills after a couple of years and then gets a better offer from a USL team and goes there. The MLS team is then forced to hire a similar inexperienced guy and the cycle repeats instead of the player staying with the team and getting more and more playing time in the following years. If the MLS is going to claim it is the top tier league in North America then it should be the number one address for all players that have the ability to play in the league. The USL is full of players who are of MLS calibre, they might not be the top starters and some would be only depth players but many are better than those fulfilling the roles right now.

I don't have the time or interest to make MediaGuy a list of all the players but off the top of my head a few examples are Justin Moose who said in an interview he asked DC United to release him so he could sign a better contract with the Caps (DCU tried to work out some loan deal but it didn't work so they let him go). Our own Matt Jordan had a number of MLS offers this summer but did not find them adequate to leave the Impact. In TFC's case they wanted to keep both Rosenlund and Hemming but couldn't offer them a decent salary due to cap restrictions and various MLS rules (a senior member of management told me this personally) and both turned down their offer. If they can't keep the players they want to keep then there is a problem with the current system. These are some of the reasons why the playing level of MLS is not where it should be and certainly not where the MLS claims it to be. It is also why USL teams are quite competitive with MLS teams and MG will be pleased to see the USL teams were once again very competitive in this year's Open Cup.

[Tuscan]

Why hasn't Puerto Rico pursued MLS expansion yet? They are obviously one of the top sides of USL every year (at least since I've been paying attention and I'm awesome so that time period is all that matters), and have the fan support to offer a positive club to the MLS mix. Why have they stayed in USL-1 for so long? Surely there must be some incentive in going from USL-1 to MLS aside from giving the local community a 'top tier' team?

[Grizzly]

Actually they do not have the fan support to go MLS. They have only drawn over 5 000 once this year for the season opener. One game they got barely over 2 000. Attendance is usually between 2 500 and 4 000. Playoff and CCL attendance is usually better but I would have major doubts how long such attendance could be sustained. Soccer is not the number 1 sport in Puerto Rico. Plus their stadium only seats 12 500 and while expandable is a converted baseball stadium that would need major renovations to turn it into a proper soccer stadium.

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly
[

I don't have the time or interest to make MediaGuy a list of all the players but off the top of my head a few examples are...


So instead of looking for facts to back-up your thinking, you are going to point to anecdotal evidence (which ignores the fact that the majority of players that go from MLS to USL were cut by the MLS team?

Let me put this to you bluntly. The 11-20 players on USL rosters are NOT better than the 11-20 players on MLS rosters. This idea that there are tonnes of guys who are stuck in USL because of the MLS cap and roster rules is pure fallacy. At best, there are several players that are interchangeable (only because they are older, with less promise, than the MLS player in a similar position).

Maybe I'll put the list together today so we can end this ridiculous urban myth once and for all.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

Why hasn't Puerto Rico pursued MLS expansion yet? They are obviously one of the top sides of USL every year (at least since I've been paying attention and I'm awesome so that time period is all that matters), and have the fan support to offer a positive club to the MLS mix. Why have they stayed in USL-1 for so long? Surely there must be some incentive in going from USL-1 to MLS aside from giving the local community a 'top tier' team?


Fan support has been awesome? I'll be honest with you, I was under the impression the PR wasn't exactly a football hot-bed. I'm sure they've got their share of dedicated footie fans but is there really enough of them out there to be drawn into supporting an MLS franchise. At twice or more the ticket prices? Don't know.

And who's going to pay the expansion fee? Blah, blah, blah, and all the other usual financing arguments.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

It is also why USL teams are quite competitive with MLS teams and MG will be pleased to see the USL teams were once again very competitive in this year's Open Cup.

What's your definition of very competitive?

USL teams were 4W, 7L versus MLS teams in this year's Open Cup, and managed to get one team into the semifinal. All four of those wins came in the third round where MLS teams play their complete second XI. There were no USL wins over MLS in the quarterfinal or semifinal.

Houston and DC cruised through the competition playing almost all reserves. Houston eventually lost to Seattle (still with largely a reserve side), but they were not troubled by Austin (admittedly a terrible USL-1 side) and they pasted Charleston (the current co-leader of USL1) in Charleston 4-0 while starting nine reserve players.

I realize Houston is the top team in MLS, but I wouldn't have mentioned them had they not walloped the co-leader of USL-1 with such ease. I can only imagine what would have happened had they started Pat Onstad, Wade Barrett, Richard Mulrooney, Craig Waibel, Brad Davis, Brian Mullan, Ricardo Clark, Stuart Holden and Brian Ching.

[jonovision]

MLS sides also lost to two USL-2 teams. I don't know MLS rosters well enough to judge the strengh of sides, but the lineup fielded by Chicago in their loss to Wilmington contains at least 4 or 5 names that I recognized from a match against TFC earlier this year.

CHICAGO FIRE: GK-Andrew Dykstra, D-Brandon Prideaux (Tim Ward 29), D-Bakary Soumare, D-Daniel Woolard, D-Austin Washington (Marco Pappa 68), M-Mike Banner, M-Baggio Husidic, M-Peter Lowry (Chris Rolfe 76), M-Justin Mapp, F-Patrick Nyarko, F-Stefan Dimitrov.

Ward, Soumare, Pappa, Nyarko, Rolfe, Mapp and Prideaux and Woolard are all among the top 15 minute-getters for the Fire this season. This may be an anomaly, but I imagine some of the other losing MLS sides fielded comparable lineups in terms of starters vs reserves.

As another example, 9 of the starters for Chivas USA in their 3-1 loss to Charleston are among the top 15 in minutes for that team.

These are the only examples I have investigated so far.

Surely some MLS teams that have lost to lower division sides may not have fielded their best XI. But the idea that they only lose when they are not taking the competition (or the opposition) seriously is a total myth and a weak one at that.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by jonovision

Surely some MLS teams that have lost to lower division sides may not have fielded their best XI. But the idea that they only lose when they are not taking the competition (or the opposition) seriously is a total myth and a weak one at that.

It is generally the case, no matter how "weak" you think it is.

Of course some MLS teams have lost when all things were equal, that's the game. It happens all over the world.

That said, the majority of MLS losses to lower division sides in the US Open Cup have come when the MLS side (rightly or wrongly) have taken the competition lightly by playing their scrubs.

You cannot simply discount the fact that all four MLS losses this year to lower sides came in the first round that MLS enters the competition, which is when they generally use the Cup fixtures as a glorified reserve league.

I don't agree with MLS teams when they do that, in fact I wish they would respect their national cup more than they do. That said, I can see why they do, considering the small rosters.

[TFCRegina]

USL didn't have a single home game against an MLS team in the Open Cup guys. And it's not a home and home series. Saying USL isn't as good based off of their 4W, 7L record in the Open Cup is a joke. Home ground goes to the side that pays more.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by Grizzly
[

I don't have the time or interest to make MediaGuy a list of all the players but off the top of my head a few examples are...


So instead of looking for facts to back-up your thinking, you are going to point to anecdotal evidence (which ignores the fact that the majority of players that go from MLS to USL were cut by the MLS team?

Let me put this to you bluntly. The 11-20 players on USL rosters are NOT better than the 11-20 players on MLS rosters. This idea that there are tonnes of guys who are stuck in USL because of the MLS cap and roster rules is pure fallacy. At best, there are several players that are interchangeable (only because they are older, with less promise, than the MLS player in a similar position).

Maybe I'll put the list together today so we can end this ridiculous urban myth once and for all.



I would concure with this. A few years back there was anecdotal evidence that Gabriel Gervais made 50K playing for the Impact. And, at the same time was employed (I believe that he has a degree in Engineering) for one of Saputo's other business interests in the off-season. You wont find anything out there in regards to USL salaries but the general consensus is that Gervais's situation was some sort of benchmark or standard for USL deals for players. Also, he was talented and fixture on the backline and also earned some call up for Canada. So that 50k was not paid for entirely from club's soccer operations but other parts of the company business. So for other players less talented player, what is the salary they'd get from just playing for the club? and can you live off of that salary by just playing soccer?

Most of the Lynx players that we knew of had supplemental interest such as teaching in high schools or playing in the indoor leagues in the off-season. Furthermore there were the variety coaching clinic that were the staple of club and for which you can imagine paid a substantial sum to the club and player. So players in USL strike me more as independent contractors, with different things always on the go, and whereby your salary from soccer alone is not enough to support you. And I do believe that that salary by Gervais was a standard.

For further proof, i would refer to Grant Wahl's (the Beckham experiment) recent book whereby it was stated that Alan Gordon ( a standout in USL BTW with Portland)was earning in that 30-40K range with the galaxy. As a result, he was living in an appartment with two other teammates and was coaching a kids team and had to travel great distances to get there because he needed that extra income to survive. But when they boosted his salary to something like 79K, then he moved out and got his own place and quite the kids coaching job that he had on the side. Hence, if good USL salaries were anywhere near the 50K range, then why did he leave Portland to begin with? Recall that Portland was one of the more successfully run clubs in USL. And why is it that he no longer needed the extra income when he hit 70K benchmark? And, finally we are talking about a recognizable name from his days in USL.

Some other facts. USL gate attendances are about a third that of MLS. Take that MLS salary cap number and multiply by a third Or if you think that its better in places like Montreal and Rochester, take 50% as number. Then Consider sponsorships and advertising. Just looking at it visually and look at the shear number of sponsors that you see MLS versus the USL and then look at type of sponsors. USL sponsors tend to be very local and the advertising expenditures is always going to be affected by crowd size and audience. Most MLS sponsors tend to be international companies with a world wide reach. So even if you want to be generous to the USL, lets say that its a further one third that of MLS. Now what number do you come up with? divide that by 20 players. See what kind of number you come up with for a salary budget and per player. You can boost a bit given that some USL markets like Montreal and Rochester draw better but not by that much and consider the number of give away tickets.
So I come with something like 10-25K.

Conclusion, it looks to me that just about every player in the USL would jump at the opportunity to earn even 50K in one season. and there is no way that an MLS club couldn't fit that kind of salary under the cap if it's a player that they really want and feel can improve their team. And if that's the case, then how can someone suggest that the MLS salary structure keeps USL players from moving up unless one believes professionally run clubs are not interested in improving and/or that individual professionals in a capitalist society are not interested in making more money.



PS.: there are some many other factors that I left out in in my calculations that I could have added but I dont feel like writing book.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by TFCRegina

USL didn't have a single home game against an MLS team in the Open Cup guys. And it's not a home and home series. Saying USL isn't as good based off of their 4W, 7L record in the Open Cup is a joke. Home ground goes to the side that pays more.

I'm saying USL isn't as good based on 14 years of evidence. The current Open Cup was brought up by someone else.

And what do you mean USL didn't have a single home game against an MLS team in the Open Cup? I mentioned Houston's win in Charleston, and in fact, three of the four of USL victories over MLS sides took place in the USL side's home stadium:

Chicago Fire 0-1 Wilmington Hammerheads (Legion Stadium. Wilmington, NC)
Columbus Crew 1-1 (AET/PSO) Rochester Rhinos (Marina Auto Stadium. Rochester, NY)
Chivas USA 1-3 Charleston Battery (Blackbaud Stadium. Charleston, SC)

A quick look at the US Open Cup site shows that six of the eight MLS-USL matchups in the third round (the first round MLS enters the competition) were hosted by the USL side.

In total, there were 11 MLS-USL matchups this year, and seven were hosted by USL sides.

Why would MLS teams who don't take the US Open Cup seriously want to outbid their opponents for the right to host the games?

[youllneverwalkalone]

It seems quite obvious to me that the current MLS cap limits the depth of the clubs and can contibute to upsets and early exits in the cups. Clearly there are top players in the USL who could be depth players in MLS. I did some work for the Football Manager series, and was given a file at the beginning of the '08 season with salary information on the Caps which was deemed to be reliable. The range for the first team players was between $50-100k. The market would dictate that many of these players are going to be better than the MLSers making less than $50k. Granted, Kerfoot likely over pays somewhat in order to get a full-time commitment from his players.

[canucklefan]

Regarding next game against PR, and possibly three other games at BMO Field, I hope BMO turf will have a negative impact on PR and the opponents who aren't familiar with artificial turf. I was surprised that TFC dominated River Plate last week and maybe BMO turf didn't favour River Plate's game as they probably played on artificial turf for the first time in their lives.

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

Regarding next game against PR, and possibly three other games at BMO Field, I hope BMO turf will have a negative impact on PR and the opponents who aren't familiar with artificial turf. I was surprised that TFC dominated River Plate last week and maybe BMO turf didn't favour River Plate's game as they probably played on artificial turf for the first time in their lives.



Puerto Rico also plays on Turf, and it's better quality then the crap they play on at BMO. River Plate if you can call it that, was really their youth team.

[tmcmurph]

PRI rested a lot of their starters including their goalie last night against Vancouver. Paid for it with a 4-2 loss as well but they will have their 'A' game ready for you guys. Bring your 'A' game as well and you should win.

Watch out for PRI's speed. They have some very fast players.

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by Mr.Impact


quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

Regarding next game against PR, and possibly three other games at BMO Field, I hope BMO turf will have a negative impact on PR and the opponents who aren't familiar with artificial turf. I was surprised that TFC dominated River Plate last week and maybe BMO turf didn't favour River Plate's game as they probably played on artificial turf for the first time in their lives.



Puerto Rico also plays on Turf, and it's better quality then the crap they play on at BMO. River Plate if you can call it that, was really their youth team.


That's something I couldn't check, River's line up against TFC, but I could recognize at least, Fabianni in attack (a last year starter), also the return of Ortega. Also I was expecting to see Falcao but I've just learned he's now a FC Porto player. Anyway, I can garantee you that Fabiani and Ortega are key players for River Plate.

[Rudi]

So Nana Attakora is out for the match on Wednesday, and Serioux and Guevara are 'doubtful'

http://toronto.fc.mlsnet.com/news/team_news.jsp?ymd=20090727&content_id=6087302&vkey=news_t280&fext=.jsp&team=t280

[MexTFC]

If Guevara does not play, TFC is going to have a tough time of it, unless Vitti can step up in that role. If PR bunkers, I suspect TFC will try and attack down the flanks. With DeRo attacking which ever back seems weaker on film.

[michaeltfc91]

---------------------Frei
-----Velez------Wynne-----Garcia------Brennan-----
-------------Cronin--------Robinson---------------
-------Barrett----De Rosiario----Vitti------------
--------------------Gerba

- I switched Velez and Wynne because we need a fast center back for this game from what I'm hearing
- Only useful sub now is Dichio
- Gomez, Ibrahim, White, Gala, Edwards, Sanyang are our only other subs due to injuries and are all WAY too young and inexperienced to play

[MexTFC]

quote:Originally posted by michaeltfc91

---------------------Frei
-----Velez------Wynne-----Garcia------Brennan-----
-------------Cronin--------Robinson---------------
-------Barrett----De Rosiario----Vitti------------
--------------------Gerba

- I switched Velez and Wynne because we need a fast center back for this game from what I'm hearing
- Only useful sub now is Dichio
- Gomez, Ibrahim, White, Gala, Edwards, Sanyang are our only other subs due to injuries and are all WAY too young and inexperienced to play




Sorry, not sure what happened to my previous post.

Anyways, from what I have seen, when TFC plays a bunker/counter team like this, CC likes to put DeRo on the wing. So I think you will see Vitti play the central role.

[Rudi]

No way does Wynne play centre back on Wednesday.

[Duane Rollins]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

No way does Wynne play centre back on Wednesday.



That could be the scariest suggestion I've ever heard.

[Sam]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

No way does Wynne play centre back on Wednesday.


I don't think I've ever seen such a technically poor player rated as highly as Wynne. The guy has a lot of pace and is an exceptional athlete, but on the ball and defending wise the guy is sub par.

[michaeltfc91]

quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by Rudi

No way does Wynne play centre back on Wednesday.



That could be the scariest suggestion I've ever heard.


What happened to everyone being scared about their speedy strikers?
With Velez and Garcia playing center back there is no speed and they will get beat. Play Wynne as a center back when defending so he can defend the fast guys. If Puerto Rico uses tall strikers, play Velez and Garcia at CB.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by michaeltfc91


quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by Rudi

No way does Wynne play centre back on Wednesday.



That could be the scariest suggestion I've ever heard.


What happened to everyone being scared about their speedy strikers?
With Velez and Garcia playing center back there is no speed and they will get beat. Play Wynne as a center back when defending so he can defend the fast guys. If Puerto Rico uses tall strikers, play Velez and Garcia at CB.


PR's strikers range from 5'10'' to 6' 1'' so reasonably tall and all are fast. The 6' 1'' guy is Nick Addlery who didn't do much with the Caps but has been pretty good since joining PR both in CCL and the USL (not to mention that he went out drinking and womanizing with Grizzly once :)). He has 4 goals in 14 USL games. Their leading scorer, however, is not a striker but defender Cristian Arrieta who is 6' 2'' and has 7 goals in 21 games. BTW this is the guy who PRI replaced Velez with and who I mentioned as a big upgrade on Velez in some of our USL/MLS comparison threads. He is a far better player than Velez and has played Serie B in Italy. That is what happens when you have a competent guy like Colin Clarke in charge of your team instead of an incompetent like Mo Johnson or Nick De Santis.

[nolando]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly


quote:Originally posted by michaeltfc91


quote:Originally posted by MediaGuy


quote:Originally posted by Rudi

No way does Wynne play centre back on Wednesday.



That could be the scariest suggestion I've ever heard.


What happened to everyone being scared about their speedy strikers?
With Velez and Garcia playing center back there is no speed and they will get beat. Play Wynne as a center back when defending so he can defend the fast guys. If Puerto Rico uses tall strikers, play Velez and Garcia at CB.


PR's strikers range from 5'10'' to 6' 1'' so reasonably tall and all are fast. The 6' 1'' guy is Nick Addlery who didn't do much with the Caps but has been pretty good since joining PR both in CCL and the USL (not to mention that he went out drinking and womanizing with Grizzly once :)).


Must have pretty bad taste in women ;>

[yankiboy]

Greetings from a Puerto Rican Islander supporter!

We have been looking forward to this match ever since we drew TFC. They were supposed to give us a friendly down in Bayamon as part of Marco Velez signing but they never came through.

We are really hoping to give the Reds two good matches. Many of us cheer for TFC because they gave Velez a chance and because we respect the flava that TO has brought to MLS.

WE LOVE MARCO VELEZ.

Marco Velez is without a doubt a very HUGE fish in a small pond which is just to say that the guy and his family (his mom, dad, brother, nephews, etc--STILL attend Islander home games) are avid Island supporters even though Marco has gone on to a bigger stage to ply his trade. He is an icon in Puerto Rico and some people who don't follow the sport know him from his media interviews.

He is the captain of the dormant Puerto Rican national team and the greatest player to date that the Island has produced in the modern era; some of the kids of Puerto Rican raised in the States and other places have the potential to be even better but thet are younger and not there yet).

You can ask my four year old daughter about Marco and she will tell you that he plays in the defence for TFC and that he is the captain of the Puerto Rican National Team and comes from Carolina, like her (even though she was born in the States--it's her mom who is also from Marco's hometown).

People use Marco as an example of hardwork and blazing a trail. So it will be a very fascinating homecoming for Velez. When he got red carded for the Alecko Eskandarian incident, he was flown home and honored at an Islanders game for his success with TFC.

This time will be very different. We LOVE Marco and many of us cheer for TFC but when the two sides face (unless your last name is alread Velez or you want it to eventually become Velez), we are pretty clear about where our support lies. When it is all over, no matter which way it turns out, we will still love Marco and I think that most of us will still follow TFC as long as he is there.

[yankiboy]

As far as out tactics go tonight, I expect it to be more of the same:

We play tight and organized, and it starts from the back. That is the Colin Clarke way.

Our keeper Bill Gaudette is just plain sick sometimes. Cristian Arrieta who is great going forward and is know to find the back of the net--is also an excellent lateral defender.

We will try to keep our shape and play the ball forward through Noah Delgado and Jonny Steele.

We will pick our moments to counter-attack. I know that Nicolas Addlery was mentioned as an offensive weapon but I would also say keep an eye out for one of our Hatian internationals, Fabrice Noel. He loves to run at guys. Kendall Jandeosingh also likes to run at guys and if he doesn't start then depending on how we are doing if going forward to score to win or try and salvage a draw is crucial, he may come off the bench.

Corners will and set plays in the area of the TFC attacking third will crucial. It wouldn't surpise me if a defender like Arrieta or John Krause manages to score or assist of a header.

Krause might be the defender who will be most responsible to try and stop DeRo. Maybe a guy like Sandy Gbandi or James Marcelin (the latter showed very good form playing for Haiti in Gold Cup this month--the best that I can remember him playing and he did stuggle in CCL matches before--maybe they will show us something extra.

I expect for us to struggle with the turf a bit. It is a different quality than what we play on in Montreal and Portland (we are not comfortable on the turf but your is of higher quality than those other places that I mentioned).

We will try and offer a workman like effort and try to head back to Bayamon with at least a draw. We will attempt to avoid chasing the game. Better to go home 0-0 then down 2-0 or 3-0.

So there you have it, the Yanki-Yank Preview from and Islander supporter's angle.

Good Luck to both teams.

[Ivan]

Thanks Yankiboy. I know there is talk of starting Gomez tonight in light of Marco's poor form of late, but you would have to think he would be pumped to play this series.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by yankiboy

I expect for us to struggle with the turf a bit. It is a different quality than what we play on in Montreal and Portland (we are not comfortable on the turf but your is of higher quality than those other places that I mentioned).

Er... Montreal has natural grass, and I believe has only played on artificial turf at home once in its 16 year history (the quarterfinal home game against Santos Laguna earlier this year).

You might mean Rochester.

Our turf is technically the highest quality of FieldTurf available, but it's been so overused (an average of 16 hours per day in the winter months) that it's badly worn down and likely in worse condition than Rochester's turf.

[yankiboy]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by yankiboy

I expect for us to struggle with the turf a bit. It is a different quality than what we play on in Montreal and Portland (we are not comfortable on the turf but your is of higher quality than those other places that I mentioned).

Er... Montreal has natural grass, and I believe has only played on artificial turf at home once in its 16 year history (the quarterfinal home game against Santos Laguna earlier this year).

You might mean Rochester.

Our turf is technically the highest quality of FieldTurf available, but it's been so overused (an average of 16 hours per day in the winter months) that it's badly worn down and likely in worse condition than Rochester's turf.

Definite Botch! So right you are--

I was thinking of the stadium formerly known as Rinos Stadium formerly PAETEC in Rochester now named Marna Auto so something or other...

My bad. Although you could NEVER confuse the two cities, I sometimes confuse the parks and clubs because both of them OWNED us in USL1 play until last year...

[yankiboy]

Anybody have any idea if DeRo is going to start or not? That could be key. Gerba worries me as well.

I could easily see a situation where Dicchio and one of our muchachos gets into it or with Guevara.

Our guys don't back down. I know that we are battle tested in this tournament but because it is an MLS club, they might be more wound up to try and prove something. Call it the USL chip on the shoulder syndrome... The truth is, our club always has something to prove when we play ininternational competition. Which is a good thing when they manage the emotions...

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by yankiboy

Anybody have any idea if DeRo is going to start or not? That could be key. Gerba worries me as well.

I could easily see a situation where Dicchio and one of our muchachos gets into it or with Guevara.

Our guys don't back down. I know that we are battle tested in this tournament but because it is an MLS club, they might be more wound up to try and prove something. Call it the USL chip on the shoulder syndrome... The truth is, our club always has something to prove when we play ininternational competition. Which is a good thing when they manage the emotions...

Expect our first team out there tonight against you guys.

Guevara, Serioux and Attakora will miss the game due to injury, though.

[yankiboy]

Rudi, thanks fo the injury info...

[Cheeta]

Okay, that was pretty sloppy so far. Almost lazy at times by TFC. That won't do.

Barret had a good half. More and more I get the impression Ali G and he seem to have an understanding out there and that should profit them both in the long run.

Man, that Gomez kid needs some work. Looks like there is a foundation there, something to start with but still, he's going to need some work.

[GoF]

I like how the commentators are now saying that taking a 0-0 scoreline to Puerto Rico next week is a good thing!

Lot of empty seats around (and I'm not talking about the ones for the Real Madrid game! [:p])

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Not giving up the away goal is very important.

[dyslexic nam]

^ so much for that

[dyslexic nam]

phuck

[john tv]

We don't have the horses sofar.

[GoF]

Cracking goal!

Mon the Islanders.

[GoF]

Gaudette's a fantastic keeper. Him and Nolly are head and shoulders ahead of the rest in the USL and both could go on to play at a much higher level.

His timewasting came at the perfect time to kill the game just when TFC needed to raise it. Was well worth his booking.

That save from Dichio was world class.

[Blue and White Army]

<smirk>

[A.D.I.D.A.S.]

anybody know what happened on the field at the end??? i'm listening to FAN 590 and they said something happened on the pitch right after the game ended...

[tmcmurph]

Well at least you don't have to beat them by 4 goals in Puerto Rico. Like I said bring your "A" game because the Islanders are one tough side and very well coached. TFC had most of the possession time but couldn't get enough shots on net.

Better luck next time in the Caribbean.

[Richard]

TFC just not good enough, tonight's result must be very embarrassing for them and their fans.

[Cheeta]

LOL! Geezus, TFC are in the fire now.

Great finish on the goal. Real smart finish but in all honesty the opportunity should never have been presented. Oh-my-Gawd. This team sometimes...

PR look like they could be opened up. I think TFC can crack them open in style but not with what they brought tonight. Damn.

And here I thought Dichio was injured! Bring him on at the 85th when it's odvious you're getting killed in the air? WTF? I was expecting a more speedy attack from TFC at the get go but then to leave Dichio out for 95% of the match? Cummins couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag.

They're in the fire now. If Cummins thinks he'll see better from his squad in Puerto Rico after travelling 3,000 km and playing three matches in 8 days he's off his nut. They needed three points tonight.

[SoccerfanatiQ]

Can't beleive it, TFC has almost half Canada MNT and can't beat a USL team in TOronto. Hope you guy's do better in PR.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by GoF

I like how the commentators are now saying that taking a 0-0 scoreline to Puerto Rico next week is a good thing!

Lot of empty seats around (and I'm not talking about the ones for the Real Madrid game! [:p])


Looked a good crowd! That east grandstand is always the emptiest. We only got the one look at the west grandstand and it looked full up. Think there was a very decent crowd out tonight.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Maybe tells you something about the quality of the CMNT, SoccerfanatiQ (i.e not as good as some on here like to think). I think De Rosario should have played more centrally with Cronin if he had to be used out wide. That way the three best bets in possession terms (Robinson, Vitti and De Rosario) could have combined better. With the team that was put out there and the number of speculative high balls into the box Dichio should have been on much sooner. Cummins was outcoached tonight.

[JamesW]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

TFC just not good enough, tonight's result must be very embarrassing for them and their fans.

I don't see why this is so. If Puerto Rico hadn't beaten some of the best teams in CONCACAF last year, you'd be right. But they did last year so there should be no shame in losing to them. From what I saw, Toronto had most of the play but just couldn't find the back of the net.

No shame in that at all.

[hottoddy7]

2 players equals almost half? Yeah TFC are just bad.

[Cheeta]

quote:Originally posted by hottoddy7

2 players equals almost half? Yeah TFC are just bad.


I've got three. By my reckoning maybe Serioux, maybe DDR, and of course Mr. Ali G.

Yes, that's right. [u]Maybe</u> de Rossario. That's it. That's all.

Two "maybes" and a poacher.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta


quote:Originally posted by hottoddy7

2 players equals almost half? Yeah TFC are just bad.


I've got three. By my reckoning maybe Serioux, maybe DDR, and of course Mr. Ali G.

Yes, that's right. [u]Maybe</u> de Rossario. That's it. That's all.

Two "maybes" and a poacher.

Too bad the poacher missed that chance from Cronin's headed pass in the second half.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

Also Brennan as well going a bit further back. What I took from SoccerfanatiQ's post was that he expected more against a USL-D1 team from CMNT level players like De Rosario, Gerba and Brennan and I find it hard to argue against that. I personally doubt that a fit Serioux and Sutton for Frei if he were still on the roster would have made much of a difference so you can construct an up to half sort of argument based on quality of players that have been on the TFC roster this season.

[ag futbol]

Serioux also didn't play. So shal we call it 1.5?

Anyway, it was a disapointing game for TFC. The biggest issue i thought was the creative ability of the midfield (and the poor crossing quality). Carl Robinson simply cannot be the playmaker for any attack, he has no creativity and limited passing ability. The wing play was terrible, both from the mid and attacking from the back.

The only positive i saw was that Gomez looked more confortable than last game. Maybe we can find him a sup appearance or two so he can continue to progress. Starting him at this point would seem less than ideal.

[jpg75]

How about we construct an argument where 2 players on the field that can be reasonably expected to be a part of the Canadian NT going forward. Let's maybe give this sillyness a rest and dissect the game instead?

Puerto Rico had little in the way of dangerous play and capitalized on a mistake. Besides that they played defensive, counter-attack football to a tee and walked out with a cynical 1-0 win. Good for them.

[hottoddy7]

Sorry I forgot about Gerba, But if Serioux did not play that would still be 2. Brennan I would not count. Though if we were to count Brennan I suppose we should say the same about Welsh and American Internationals level players. I would just say that TFC are not very good. I doubt very much that they make the playoffs.

[BringBackTheBlizzard]

quote:Originally posted by ag futbol

Carl Robinson simply cannot be the playmaker for any attack, he has no creativity and limited passing ability.

His strengths are as a ballwinner and knowing how to get open for a quick outlet pass from the defence. The player beside him in centre mid needs to be the main playmaker if a patient possession-oriented style is going to be used because Robinson definitely is not good at defence splitting passes, which is why Guevara has been playing a deeper role of late. Guevara's absence wasn't adequately addressed.

[Grizzly]

I am just waiting for MediaGuy to show up! Yes tonight sure proved how superior MLS is to USL. The thought of him seeing that result in person brings a :) to my face. Can't wait for his excuses!:D

[chantingcraig]

lol

[john tv]

This Gerba is no good sofar.He needs to loose that weight and than he will be dangerous.It's so easy to cover an overweight guy.Yes Danny should have been a starter.He is very smart,great target man,great skills and superb motivation.Well above anyone else on that team.
Tonight was a nighthell and these Riccoos have good skills well coached and know how to close down our offence.Yes we outshot outcornered etc,but shots on goal meaning dangerous one not one I remember.Anyway we miss a dominating defender and or midfielder.

[Ivan]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I am just waiting for MediaGuy to show up! Yes tonight sure proved how superior MLS is to USL. The thought of him seeing that result in person brings a :) to my face. Can't wait for his excuses!:D

That was probably the most one-sided game I have seen in my three year history of attending TFC games. If anything (and I have never been a trumpeter of the MLS far superior than USL club) that game shows how superior MLS is to USL. There was no comparing the two teams.

TFC plays way too tight at home. They need to loosen up. Man that was frustrating.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Ivan


quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I am just waiting for MediaGuy to show up! Yes tonight sure proved how superior MLS is to USL. The thought of him seeing that result in person brings a :) to my face. Can't wait for his excuses!:D

That was probably the most one-sided game I have seen in my three year history of attending TFC games. If anything (and I have never been a trumpeter of the MLS far superior than USL club) that game shows how superior MLS is to USL. There was no comparing the two teams.

TFC plays way too tight at home. They need to loosen up. Man that was frustrating.


Ha, Ha that is very funny. A 1-0 loss at home proves the superiority of your team and league. I hope MediaGuy at least has something better than that. BTW the last game we played against Puerto Rico we dominated play far more than TFC did tonight (which was not very much). We also lost 1-0. This is how Puerto Rico plays on the road and if TFC can't break that down there is absolutely no basis for them considering themselves a better team in a better league.

[VPjr]

quote:Originally posted by BringBackTheBlizzard

Maybe tells you something about the quality of the CMNT, SoccerfanatiQ (i.e not as good as some on here like to think). I think De Rosario should have played more centrally with Cronin if he had to be used out wide. That way the three best bets in possession terms (Robinson, Vitti and De Rosario) could have combined better. With the team that was put out there and the number of speculative high balls into the box Dichio should have been on much sooner. Cummins was outcoached tonight [u]and most nights</u>.


fixed your post

[VPjr]

Everyone knew that PRI was going to bunker, play a very organized, disciplined match and try to capitalize on a TFC error. EVERYONE knew this. This is what they do. clearly, the coaching staff wasn't up to the task to get the team prepped. They failed to get their team up for this match (first 45 minutes were abysmal) and the team really only seemed to wake up once they were scored upon.

TFC supporters...your team is not as good as you like to think it is. This is a mediocre squad, barely better in real terms than last season's squad.

Having said that, this schizo side might just lose this weekend in New England and then go to Puerto Rico and pump 4 goals by PRI and win this series. I wouldn't bet on it but it is possible

[brownbear]

I only watched the 2nd half and these are my impressions:

1) PR played the perfect (and perfectly cynical) road match.
2) When it became apparent that PR was going to put 10 men behind the ball, and without Guevara on the field, you just knew that TFC were not going to be able to break through using short passes. Therefore, Dichio should have been brought on earlier. I'll give Cummins some slack if Dichio was nursing an injury as the urgency to score a goal only arrived late into the 2nd half (i.e., after PR scored).

3) Wynne--when the only quality that you can admire is a player is his pace, you have to start to wonder. It's not a surprise that Wynne received no playing time in South Africa.

4) GET RID OF THAT GOD-AWFUL TURF!!! :(:(:( I don't know how many times a TFC player had to wait that extra half-second for the ball to come back down. Anyone who has played competitive sports understands that it's this half-second of time that separates the greats from the also-rans.

[Intru]

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

Why hasn't Puerto Rico pursued MLS expansion yet? They are obviously one of the top sides of USL every year (at least since I've been paying attention and I'm awesome so that time period is all that matters), and have the fan support to offer a positive club to the MLS mix. Why have they stayed in USL-1 for so long? Surely there must be some incentive in going from USL-1 to MLS aside from giving the local community a 'top tier' team?


We are only 5 years old jeje. The problem like any other MLS prospect city is the lack of a rich enough owner(s). The stadium is owned by the city and already has a renovations expancion plan in place. I belive a MLS teams could draw 10k-13k a game here if done properly, the islanders have no poblicity or marketing so 2k-4k is very decent. Also theres no mayor sport team on the Island and a MLS team budget would dawrth anything a local baseball, basketball or volleyball team has.

[DoyleG]

http://hiapr.org/yabb/Attachments/GRIM_REAPER_by_IDarkShadowI_003.jpg

[Tuscan]

I don't know if I've seen TFC play so lack-lustre and sh*tty in the three years I've watched them. Well... perhaps that's not true, but to think they'd throw everything they've got at PRI while at home and go for a badly needed three points didn't seem to fit into their game plan tonight. If they lose this prelim, they will disgrace Canadian footy, become the Leafs Jr., and show exactly how poor they really are. Vancouver got FAKING robbed, and would have won this one tonight. You incompetent pieces of sh*t, wake the fak up and pull this one out in Puerto Rico! What a sh*t performance, faking disgrace...

[earlimus]

Nice language ^^^. Still... you're not far off.

However, TFC is a good 40 years away of sucking that much ass to be compared to the Leafs. Let's not go too far here.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

I don't know if I've seen TFC play so lack-lustre and sh*tty in the three years I've watched them. Well... perhaps that's not true, but to think they'd throw everything they've got at PRI while at home and go for a badly needed three points didn't seem to fit into their game plan tonight. If they lose this prelim, they will disgrace Canadian footy, become the Leafs Jr., and show exactly how poor they really are. Vancouver got FAKING robbed, and would have won this one tonight. You incompetent pieces of sh*t, wake the fak up and pull this one out in Puerto Rico! What a sh*t performance, faking disgrace...


Was this the first TFC game you ever watched? Lacklustre and ****ty would be a good description of the majority of games they have played in the last 3 years and I think even a lot of TFC fans would agree with that. There is a reason they didn't made the playoffs the first two years and are 50/50 to make them now. The only difference in the play/result against PR is that people have been drinking the MLS is so much better than USL cool aid and expected TFC to win and dominate. It is rare that I miss his presence on this board but I am still waiting for our resident Jim Jones to appear.:D

[Gian-Luca]

The Canadian MNT players (the ones that still do and could play for the Nats ie. not Brennan) weren't the problem in this game. They were two of the few players to show any sense of urgency in the 1st half. If you want to point the finger, pointing it a former Welsh national team player would be the starting point (and he wants to play another 5 years in the league? He'll be lucky to last the season after last night's performance), followed by a handful of players not normally considered good enough for their national teams. And, it has to be said, Stefan Frei who hasn't looked good since TFC dumped Sutton.

TFC moved the ball wayyyyy too slowly in the 1st half, much of that down to Cronin and especially Robinson in the middle of the park acting as slow-ass connectors. They missed Guevara big time in that respect. They will probably do better in Puerto Rico because they'll play with some urgency from the start of the game instead of just the start of the 2nd half. With the crossing ability in this game, is it really too much to ask to give Gala a shot in that role, even if just late in the game?

As for Puerto Rico, I haven't seen that much cynical play and time-wasting at BMO since Costa Rica played there two years ago. I think I hate these guys more than any team in MLS. Why they were allowed by the Ref to stand only 5 yards back from each free kick is beyond me.

[loyola]

TFC looked like they were missing Guevara big time in the middle.

Vitti is just poor, virtually doing nothing apart from a couple of interesting dribble and slowing the game everytime he gets the ball into his feet.

Robinson and Cronin weren't creating anything but I'm not sure it's fair to ask them much in that regard.

Gerba missed a sitter but played a good game I thought. He looked more involve in the play than what he usually does with Canada (except scoring goals ;)).

MOTM, the keeper. Say what you want about his antics he played a perfect game and made 2-3 crucial saves in the 2nd half to keep PR in the game.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

TFC just not good enough, tonight's result must be very embarrassing for them and their fans.

Hardly.

Disappointing? Very. Embarrassing? Not so much.

PR played the bunker game to perfection. 75% of the play was in their half, but TFC without Guevara could not play a style that was ever going to truly break them down. Even so, it took a couple of very good saves from penis-head Gaudette (who may be the worst time-wasting **** I've ever seen in my life, no hyperbole) to preserve the result.

TFC needs both DeRo and Guevara on the field at the same time to be able to handle the bunker-n-hack style that teams like PR employ. Take one of them away and they triple team the other, effective disabling all creativity in attack.

All of that said, PR was ridiculously cynical, and if people think they always play like that against USL opponents they are showing their bias against TFC. PR may play a counter-attacking style against other USL sides, but they actually have the balls to leave their own half knowing that they can run and gun with a USL side. If they tried that at BMO last night, they would have lost, heavily.

But take nothing away, they stuck to their game plan, as BS and cynical as it was.

And Grizzly, if you don't think TFC dominated that match, you're the one drinking the Kool-Aid. The fact is that the 3rd place USL side felt it necessary to play a ridiculous 11-men-behind-the-ball game against the current 10th place side in MLS. And had their keeper not stood on his penis head on more than one occasion, they would have lost.

If that doesn't show that there is a gap in quality between MLS and USL, well then I guess you can keep having fun in that dream world of yours (all while you inexplicably pine for Montreal's entry into MLS).

[earlimus]

Who isn't pining (correct spelling?) for Montreal's entry into MLS????

Ohhhh... CanAda....

[earlimus]

Who isn't pining (correct spelling?) for Montreal's entry into MLS????

Ohhhh... CanAda....

[Grizzly]

The fact is PRI won away against an MLS side playing the exact same way they have played away in USL and CCL for the last year at least and TFC could not handle them. I don't know why everyone is crying cynical since most teams throughout the soccer world play like this away. I am enjoying the excuses and whining though!

[Grizzly]

BTW, I am not pining for Montreal's entry to MLS. The MLS level of football disappoints me greatly though if they followed my advice that I don't think I need to repeat the potential to greatly improve the level is there. What MLS has over USL is more franchises in larger cities and it is far better marketed which are the main reasons I would like to see us join MLS. I only hope that they change the way the league is run so that by the time we join there is an obvious improvement in playing level over USL.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

The fact is PRI won away against an MLS side playing the exact same way they have played away in USL and CCL for the last year at least and TFC could not handle them. I don't know why everyone is crying cynical since most teams throughout the soccer world play like this away. I am enjoying the excuses and whining though!

Where's the excuses? I clearly said PR played their game plan to perfection.

Your assertion that USL is on par with MLS because MLS' tenth-placed side lost to one of USL's top teams is ridiculous, and you know it.

And no, PR doesn't play that way in the USL. They tend to leave their own half more than twice per game against USL opponents. I've watched many of their games this year on USL Live, and I've seen with my own eyes PR actually attempting to attack against USL opponents, something that did not happen yesterday.

I get that you're doing your duty as the most vocal Montreal fan to stir the pot against Toronto at every given opportunity, but at least try to be factual when doing so.

[Richard]

Ah I get it, so now it's PRI's fault that TFC couldn't find a way to score even one goal last night, wow! It's either that or the fact the Guevara wasn't there that TFC couldn't do it. Plain and simple, TFC the team just wasn't up to the task.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Ah I get it, so now it's PRI's fault that TFC couldn't find a way to score even one goal last night, wow!And now Richard is reading words that weren't typed. Again. Wow!

Of course it's PRI's "fault" that TFC couldn't score. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT PRI WAS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH!


quote:It's either that or the fact the Guevara wasn't there that TFC couldn't do it.
You're just being intentionally obtuse.

I said TFC needs both Guevara and DeRo on the pitch to be able to effectively break down a bunker. If one is missing, all creativity disappears as the opponent is able to key in on the remaining player and neutralize him.

How is what I said wrong?


quote:Plain and simple, TFC the team just wasn't up to the task.

They could have used you in the broadcast booth last night.

Your insight clearly puts guys like Jason DeVos to shame.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

TFC looked like they were missing Guevara big time in the middle.

Vitti is just poor, virtually doing nothing apart from a couple of interesting dribble and slowing the game everytime he gets the ball into his feet.

Robinson and Cronin weren't creating anything but I'm not sure it's fair to ask them much in that regard.

Gerba missed a sitter but played a good game I thought. He looked more involve in the play than what he usually does with Canada (except scoring goals ;)).

MOTM, the keeper. Say what you want about his antics he played a perfect game and made 2-3 crucial saves in the 2nd half to keep PR in the game.


There were too many passing/possession giveaways in the first half. Though some posters throw him under the bus pretty quickly when he's not having a good match, Guevara and his midfield creativity was missing this evening. Cronin's shining moment was his headed pass to Gerba and that should have turned into 1-0, but that's that.

[Gian-Luca]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA

There were too many passing/possession giveaways in the first half.

I think Robinson alone had 5 giveaways in the first 20 minutes of the game.

[MastaK]

Hey on the bright side...if your team comes back and win in PR, they will be pumped up for the group stage and could go far...

But PR is not Montreal. And they won't play their B-team.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by MastaK

Hey on the bright side...if your team comes back and win in PR, they will be pumped up for the group stage and could go far...

But PR is not Montreal. And they won't play their B-team.

I wish they were Montreal. Then we'd beat them for sure.

/Obligatory trash-talk now complete

[SteveBeau]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by MastaK

Hey on the bright side...if your team comes back and win in PR, they will be pumped up for the group stage and could go far...

But PR is not Montreal. And they won't play their B-team.

I wish they were Montreal. Then we'd beat them for sure.

/Obligatory trash-talk now complete


Cause the Impact seems to be the only USL-1 team TFC can consistently beat....

[canadianfoot]

Catenaccio anyone? Reminds me of watching Serie A games in the 80's or the Azzuri themselves. score 1goal and grind your opponent into a wall

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by SteveBeau


quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by MastaK

Hey on the bright side...if your team comes back and win in PR, they will be pumped up for the group stage and could go far...

But PR is not Montreal. And they won't play their B-team.

I wish they were Montreal. Then we'd beat them for sure.

/Obligatory trash-talk now complete


Cause the Impact seems to be the only USL-1 team TFC can consistently beat....

Congrats on understanding what my post.

You get a cookie.

http://pixiestixkidspix.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/cookie-bite-web.jpg

[Free kick]

The interesting thing about Robinson. The games where he stood out for me were the games that were on TV which is almost exclusively away games. Hence, where the burden is on the opposition to force the issue. What I noted is that he is good in mopping defensive mistakes and that he supports the back line well. He is the kind of player who will get noticed after you watch replays or in game films of the whole game.

But last nights game is exactly the kind of game where he looks totally ineffective and where his shortcomming stand out because PRI were playing back and not forcing things. It showed when he would get the ball and offensive quality is needed, you see time and time again that he lacks the imagination in his game and makes the predictable plays. And that was what sums it up for me in second half: predictable. Guevarra was missed big time because is not predicatble, he can influence the tempo, makes quality plays and passes in the final third and is a threat on set pieces.

He was subbed out in the second half ( a rarity) and I thought that that was a good move by Cummins. But I wasn't so keen on teh Barrett subsititions. I am far from a fan of Barrett, but I thought that that was one of his better games.

[SteveBeau]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by SteveBeau


quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by MastaK

Hey on the bright side...if your team comes back and win in PR, they will be pumped up for the group stage and could go far...

But PR is not Montreal. And they won't play their B-team.

I wish they were Montreal. Then we'd beat them for sure.

/Obligatory trash-talk now complete


Cause the Impact seems to be the only USL-1 team TFC can consistently beat....

Congrats on understanding what my post.

You get a cookie.

http://pixiestixkidspix.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/cookie-bite-web.jpg


Do I get a glass of TFC/MLS Kool-Aid to go with that..[:p]

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

The interesting thing about Robinson. The games where he stood out for me were the games that were on TV which is almost exclusively away games. Hence, where the burden is on the opposition to force the issue. What I noted is that he is good in mopping defensive mistakes and that he supports the back line well. He is the kind of player who will get noticed after you watch replays or in game films of the whole game.

But last nights game is exactly the kind of game where he looks totally ineffective and where his shortcomming stand out because PRI were playing back and not forcing things. It showed when he would get the ball and offensive quality is needed, you see time and time again that he lacks the imagination in his game and makes the predictable plays. And that was what sums it up for me in second half: predictable. Guevarra was missed big time because is not predicatble, he can influence the tempo, makes quality plays and passes in the final third and is a threat on set pieces.

He was subbed out in the second half ( a rarity) and I thought that that was a good move by Cummins. But I wasn't so keen on teh Barrett subsititions. I am far from a fan of Barrett, but I thought that that was one of his better games.


That's more or less my take on Robinson as well though I also thought he missed some tackles (or maybe it was Cronin?) last night that should have been meat and drink for him. But as G-L noted, five giveaways in the first quarter of the match is pretty poor for any kind of midfielder, defensive or attacking.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

The interesting thing about Robinson. The games where he stood out for me were the games that were on TV which is almost exclusively away games. Hence, where the burden is on the opposition to force the issue. What I noted is that he is good in mopping defensive mistakes and that he supports the back line well. He is the kind of player who will get noticed after you watch replays or in game films of the whole game.

But last nights game is exactly the kind of game where he looks totally ineffective and where his shortcomming stand out because PRI were playing back and not forcing things. It showed when he would get the ball and offensive quality is needed, you see time and time again that he lacks the imagination in his game and makes the predictable plays. And that was what sums it up for me in second half: predictable. Guevarra was missed big time because is not predicatble, he can influence the tempo, makes quality plays and passes in the final third and is a threat on set pieces.

He was subbed out in the second half ( a rarity) and I thought that that was a good move by Cummins. But I wasn't so keen on teh Barrett subsititions. I am far from a fan of Barrett, but I thought that that was one of his better games.

I couldn't agree more. That wasn't a good sub IMO. Barrett was having a good game on the left wing, keep him there so he could provide Gerba and Dichio some quality crosses.

[Ed]

Good God. Losing to a team captained by a 70's porno star!! The shame. I would lay that goal on the normally impeccable Frei. Cummins just isn't up to standards I fear. That was a shambolic defence he put out there.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Good God. Losing to a team captained by a 70's porno star!! The shame. I would lay that goal on the normally impeccable Frei. Cummins just isn't up to standards I fear. That was a shambolic defence he put out there.


Pretty dodgy looking character, that guy!

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by SteveBeau


quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by SteveBeau


quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by MastaK

Hey on the bright side...if your team comes back and win in PR, they will be pumped up for the group stage and could go far...

But PR is not Montreal. And they won't play their B-team.

I wish they were Montreal. Then we'd beat them for sure.

/Obligatory trash-talk now complete


Cause the Impact seems to be the only USL-1 team TFC can consistently beat....

Congrats on understanding what my post.

You get a cookie.

http://pixiestixkidspix.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/cookie-bite-web.jpg


Do I get a glass of TFC/MLS Kool-Aid to go with that..[:p]

Nah, Grizzly is handing out enough USL Kool-Aid in your parts to last you a long time.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Ed

Good God. Losing to a team captained by a 70's porno star!! The shame. I would lay that goal on the normally impeccable Frei. Cummins just isn't up to standards I fear. That was a shambolic defence he put out there.

His options weren't exactly plentiful. Nana and Serioux were both injured, and Velez cannot play next to another slow CB (Garcia). Who would you have had him put out there last night?

Lack of options only points to one man, and Cummins ain't it.

That said, I agree with those saying that pulling Barrett for White was the wrong move. Plus Dichio should have subbed in immediately following the PR goal.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by Richard

Ah I get it, so now it's PRI's fault that TFC couldn't find a way to score even one goal last night, wow!And now Richard is reading words that weren't typed. Again. Wow!

Of course it's PRI's "fault" that TFC couldn't score. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT PRI WAS TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH!


quote:It's either that or the fact the Guevara wasn't there that TFC couldn't do it.
You're just being intentionally obtuse.

I said TFC needs both Guevara and DeRo on the pitch to be able to effectively break down a bunker. If one is missing, all creativity disappears as the opponent is able to key in on the remaining player and neutralize him.

How is what I said wrong?


quote:Plain and simple, TFC the team just wasn't up to the task.

They could have used you in the broadcast booth last night.

Your insight clearly puts guys like Jason DeVos to shame.

No, it's TFC that didn't have the horespower to defeat PRI so the blame lies with TFC who ought to have been the superior team but were nowhere near that. You evidently missed the irony.
Soccer is a team game. If success or failure depends on but one or two players then TFC has a bigger problem than anybody thought. That's not PRI's fault, more irony.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

No, it's TFC that didn't have the horespower to defeat PRI so the blame lies with TFC who ought to have been the superior team but were nowhere near that. You evidently missed the irony.
Nowhere near that? Now you're resorting to hyperbole.

You're making it out to seem like PR destroyed TFC by five goals and Toronto never crossed their own halfway line.


quote:Soccer is a team game. If success or failure depends on but one or two players then TFC has a bigger problem than anybody thought.
More sage wisdom.

Soccer teams have never relied heavily on their best players ever, right Richard?

I didn't even suggest that Guevara's presence would have led to a TFC win. All I suggested was that Guevara would be a big help to TFC in trying to break down a bunker.

I've yet to hear from you how I was wrong by saying such a thing.

[Tuscan]

^ Agreed. It was painfully obvious how badly TFC were lacking Guevara. When DeRo gets double-teamed, the creativity goes completely out the window. Cronin and Robinson are not play-makers, and apparently quite useless when making attempts on goal. That hit Cronin took from outside the box was terrible. Gomez actually looked like he could be useful, which was nice to see.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by Tuscan

^ Agreed. It was painfully obvious how badly TFC were lacking Guevara. When DeRo gets double-teamed, the creativity goes completely out the window. Cronin and Robinson are not play-makers, and apparently quite useless when making attempts on goal. That hit Cronin took from outside the box was terrible. Gomez actually looked like he could be useful, which was nice to see.


TFC's coach said in his post game that he told the team to watch for 3 things but they only got 1 right. His post game comments seemed accurate to me. I thought he coached good but TFC just didn't get enough shots ON net.

So now you go to Puerto Rico and they have a 1 goal lead and it's an away goal at that. Tough but doable. Here is how. Pray like hell that Guevara is healthy. I don't care how much you bunker in he can curl an accurate shot over or around your bunker better than anyone else on the team.

You will need that because if you thought they bunkered down in Toronto at 0-0 wait until you see what they do at home with a 1 goal lead.

Good luck.

PS At least your "ez" situation has been sorted out. Keep Gomez & ditch Velez.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

PS At least your "ez" situation has been sorted out. Keep Gomez & ditch Velez.

I'm hoping they leave Velez in Puerto Rico.

[Ivan]

^ Well, he was chatting up some of his PR buddies at halftime and after the game. Cummins must have been right pissed at him to leave him out against his former team, starting an 18 year old in his place. Sent a message, I would say.

[jamieNDG]

that was a really unlucky loss they get one shot and it went in, tfc needed to throw more shots at the net from outside of the penalty area but the corners were the real problem, the dicio situation should have been dealt with around maybe after 50 minutes and thats the caoching staff that greated up. i still beleive that tfc will take this series. 4 4 2 formation, let them turtle.


maybe on the build up to the next game all practices should be dedicated on the reserve team defending in front of the net and the starters working on making space and shooting. nothing else. ( maybe practice some corners 2)

[yankiboy]

quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

So now you go to Puerto Rico and they have a 1 goal lead and it's an away goal at that. Tough but doable. Here is how. Pray like hell that Guevara is healthy. I don't care how much you bunker in he can curl an accurate shot over or around your bunker better than anyone else on the team.

You will need that because if you thought they bunkered down in Toronto at 0-0 wait until you see what they do at home with a 1 goal lead.

Good luck.



We play different at home. If memory serves me right (I'm too lazy to look it up) we have beaten Santos by 2 and W beat Cruz Azul by two.

Knowing that if TFC scores an away goal the series is tied and being confident at the JRL, I am not anticipating a defensive approach.

If we score the first goal then all bets are off; I would expect us to begin playing to defend the result and looking to do the usual counter attack bit that we use on the road in big games.

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by yankiboy


quote:Originally posted by tmcmurph

So now you go to Puerto Rico and they have a 1 goal lead and it's an away goal at that. Tough but doable. Here is how. Pray like hell that Guevara is healthy. I don't care how much you bunker in he can curl an accurate shot over or around your bunker better than anyone else on the team.

You will need that because if you thought they bunkered down in Toronto at 0-0 wait until you see what they do at home with a 1 goal lead.

Good luck.



We play different at home. If memory serves me right (I'm too lazy to look it up) we have beaten Santos by 2 and W beat Cruz Azul by two.

Knowing that if TFC scores an away goal the series is tied and being confident at the JRL, I am not anticipating a defensive approach.

If we score the first goal then all bets are off; I would expect us to begin playing to defend the result and looking to do the usual counter attack bit that we use on the road in big games.



Hey Yankiboy


What is the status of Fabrice Noel? He doesn't seem to be getting many minutes. I know he had a contractual dispute with management earlier on.

[yankiboy]

Mr Impact, as far as I know. Fabrice is ok. He came back from his Hational National Team duty very tired.
He was criss-crossing the USA during Gold Cup. Same with Marcelin. They played in Seattle, Boston, DC, Houston--I think he was sat because they thought that he needed a break.

The contract thing ended up getting resolved when he decided to take the deal that he was offered (and no other club move worked out for him).

When I last had contact with him a couple weeks ago he was just tired from all of the travel and the intensity of being on of Haiti's main offensive options. He just was saying that he was feeling really drained.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I've yet to hear from you how I was wrong by saying such a thing.
They lost because the team simply wasn't good enough. Add one or two different players and the chances are the team would still have failed because one player does not a TEAM make and the TEAM was just not good enough. Get it, I can't state it much more simply Rudi, sage or otherwise?

[loyola]

On a night where TFC dominated the possession like that I believe someone like Guevara could've been a difference maker with his playmaking abilities.

Despite having most of the possession (what are the stats BTW? 65 %?) Toronto wasn't able to generate good chances from the middle of the field. That's where Guevara usually excels.

You can't say if Guevara had played TFC would've won but you can say that he would've definitely helped the team in an area where they struggled all night long. They were too predictable with those attacks from the wings and a little bit of diversity could've helped exposing PR defense a little bit more.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Richard


quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I've yet to hear from you how I was wrong by saying such a thing.
They lost because the team simply wasn't good enough. Add one or two different players and the chances are the team would still have failed because one player does not a TEAM make and the TEAM was just not good enough. Get it, I can't state it much more simply Rudi, sage or otherwise?

I'm fully convinced that you're writing these incredibly dense posts solely to irritate and bait for responses, so I'm done with you.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

On a night where TFC dominated the possession like that I believe someone like Guevara could've been a difference maker with his playmaking abilities.

Despite having most of the possession (what are the stats BTW? 65 %?) Toronto wasn't able to generate good chances from the middle of the field. That's where Guevara usually excels.

You can't say if Guevara had played TFC would've won but you can say that he would've definitely helped the team in an area where they struggled all night long. They were too predictable with those attacks from the wings and a little bit of diversity could've helped exposing PR defense a little bit more.


Precisely.

The Montreal fans stated after that infamous 6-1 game that had Jordan been in net instead of Djekanovic, that TFC likely still would have won, but Montreal probably wouldn't have given up so many goal.

I didn't see Richard jump in lecturing them that one keeper wouldn't have made a difference because it was the TEAM that lost 6-1. Yet here he is stubbornly saying exactly that about Toronto and the absence of Guevara, which leads me to conclude that Richard is trolling.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi
I'm fully convinced that you're writing these incredibly dense posts solely to irritate and bait for responses, so I'm done with you.
Good because I am pretty much done with you and your total inability to comprehend simple English, or more likely unwillingness to accept your team was just not good enough on the night.

Montreal's rollover and die performance against TFC was so disgusting it was beyond belief and not worthy of comment. At least TFC was trying against PRI, they were simply not good enough to win.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Richard


quote:Originally posted by Rudi
I'm fully convinced that you're writing these incredibly dense posts solely to irritate and bait for responses, so I'm done with you.
Good because I am pretty much done with you and your total inability to comprehend simple English, or more likely unwillingness to accept your team was just not good enough on the night.

Montreal's rollover and die performance against TFC was so disgusting it was beyond belief and not worthy of comment. At least TFC was trying against PRI, they were simply not good enough to win.


You could still recognize that the absence of Guevara was a key point in the game because of TFC inability to generate good scoring opportunities from the middle of the park.

[Mr.Impact]

quote:Originally posted by loyola

On a night where TFC dominated the possession like that I believe someone like Guevara could've been a difference maker with his playmaking abilities.

Despite having most of the possession (what are the stats BTW? 65 %?) Toronto wasn't able to generate good chances from the middle of the field. That's where Guevara usually excels.

You can't say if Guevara had played TFC would've won but you can say that he would've definitely helped the team in an area where they struggled all night long. They were too predictable with those attacks from the wings and a little bit of diversity could've helped exposing PR defense a little bit more.



I disagree. You won't beat Puerto Rico down the middle. Guevara might have helped, but his temper might also have gotten the better of him. Puerto Rico is a very frustrating team to play against. When you get professionally fouled a few times, you tend to lose your concentration, and we all know that Guevara isn't the most cerebral of the bunch to begin with.:D

Jason Devos got it right when he said that you have to keep pounding balls into the box, and get Gaudette off his line. Thats how you're going to wear down PR's defence.

Also I have to agree with Gian Luca in that Carl Robinson is wayyyy over paid for the role that he has on this team. ($315,000/year). Tyler Hemming his having a great year with Charleston of USL-1, playing a similar role. He could probably be had for 1/5 of what they're paying Carl Robinson. His only problem is that he happens to be Canadian, and we all know how Mo feels about Canadians.

[loyola]

Well, from what I've seen Gaudette seems like a more than capable keeper on crosses. I doubt it's the only way to go.

I agree that PR seemed like a very well organized team at the back and tough to get through but everytime you can add a dimension to your attack it will make it tougher for the defense to stop you.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by loyola


quote:Originally posted by Richard


quote:Originally posted by Rudi
I'm fully convinced that you're writing these incredibly dense posts solely to irritate and bait for responses, so I'm done with you.
Good because I am pretty much done with you and your total inability to comprehend simple English, or more likely unwillingness to accept your team was just not good enough on the night.

Montreal's rollover and die performance against TFC was so disgusting it was beyond belief and not worthy of comment. At least TFC was trying against PRI, they were simply not good enough to win.


You could still recognize that the absence of Guevara was a key point in the game because of TFC inability to generate good scoring opportunities from the middle of the park.

That would require Richard admitting he was wrong, which I doubt he knows how to do given he has likely never done so his entire life.

I said:

I didn't even suggest that Guevara's presence would have led to a TFC win. All I suggested was that Guevara would be a big help to TFC in trying to break down a bunker.

I've yet to hear from you how I was wrong by saying such a thing.

Despite (partially) quoting this in one of his posts above, he still hasn't responded directly to this, and won't ever, because it's Richard's M.O. to be the contrarian, no matter the subject or how wrong he is.

So instead, he'll tell me all about other stuff, instead of answering me directly. It's maddeningly frustrating, but I've come to the conclusion that that's what he's aiming for.

TFC has a game tomorrow and Tuesday. I'm moving on from this thread for my own sanity's sake.

[Trillium]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


TFC has a game tomorrow and Tuesday. I'm moving on from this thread for my own sanity's sake.


So your saying your sanity is being compromised or that emotionally you are on edge ?

Ah football fanatics.. such an interesting disease, now if TFC rack up two losses what will happen ?

Seriously I hope TFC does win in PR, I want to see a good run in the CCL, hopefully being able to go to a hot weather game in the middle of winter.

[canucklefan]

I wouldn't mind to see key players such as Gerba and DeRo on the bench tomorrow. They should be ready for tuesday and seeing the usual substitutes tomorrow against NE would be a great thing.

[tmcmurph]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan

I wouldn't mind to see key players such as Gerba and DeRo on the bench tomorrow. They should be ready for tuesday and seeing the usual substitutes tomorrow against NE would be a great thing.

Not a chance. They need the 3 points badly and will play their starters to get it. It is a divisional game that has playoff implications.

[Jeffery S.]

As many fans I am pissed about this result, crappy. It is not only that they should go further than this round, just think what sort of great competitive matches they give to the fans if they do. I mean Cruz Azul at BMO is a hot competitive match, one of the most important competitive club matches to be played in Canada in the last few decades, maybe since NASL.

Definitely hoping PR is forced to play a bit more in front of their fans and that opening up gives TFC the room they need to get the goals.

[Richard]

Nothing would please me more than to see TFC win their way into the CCL round robin stage but on current performance I am not optimistic.

[canucklefan]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Nothing would please me more than to see TFC win their way into the CCL round robin stage but on current performance I am not optimistic.


Everything TFC needs is a win. It's not that bad, if they can't win in PR then TFC doesn't deserve to play in CCL.

[Richard]

quote:Originally posted by loyola
You could still recognize that the absence of Guevara was a key point in the game because of TFC inability to generate good scoring opportunities from the middle of the park.
Fact remains TFC was not good enough on the night to score more goals than PRI, one additional player might, just might, have made a difference but I really doubt it based on all the other games I have watched. One player does not a team make - your argument is simply not convincing. Besides any club that is so dependent upon one player out of a 20+ roster has a real problem anyway.

[john tv]

They have that MLSE desease which could be a very interesting subject.Anyway never mind that team,it seems that rain is just as big a fan as I am and in fact bigger.We need:

more washrooms
grass
roof
larger stadium
cheaper beer etc
better scouting staff
one magic dp

anything else guys?

[BHTC Mike]

quote:Originally posted by canucklefan
if they can't win in PR then TFC doesn't deserve to play in CCL.

That's a not unreasonable statement that I can completely agree with.

TFC has far from an impossible mountain to climb and, Grizzly's typical baiting aside, NOTHING I saw from the Islanders makes me think that they're better than TFC. If TFC can't get the job done I wouldn't want to see them have to play Saprissa and Cruz Azul.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Richard


quote:Originally posted by loyola
You could still recognize that the absence of Guevara was a key point in the game because of TFC inability to generate good scoring opportunities from the middle of the park.
Fact remains TFC was not good enough on the night to score more goals than PRI, one additional player might, just might, have made a difference but I really doubt it based on all the other games I have watched. One player does not a team make - your argument is simply not convincing. Besides any club that is so dependent upon one player out of a 20+ roster has a real problem anyway.


Well, clearly you haven't seen Guevara played. Probsbly one of TFC best players this season and playing at a position TFC looked weak last week.

No one is saying TFC is dependent on Guevara, they can win without him for sure but the way the game was played showed that he could've made a difference in the attack. It's not perfect science but it's a fair comment to make and if I remember correctly DeVos said something similar during the game about Guebara missing.

[Richard]

Maybe they can win without Guevara, but they couldn't against PRI nor Saturday against New England. Of course I've seen TFC play with Guevara, granted on TV since I live in Vancouver, but he's not the magician some people make him out to be. TFC strikes me as a team that is generally lacking in the 'desire to win' department.

[SoccerfanatiQ]

Totaly agree with you there Richard , Ithink that the differance with PRI , they really want to win. They've beatten Cruz Azul at home last year.

[loyola]

TFC 17 shots on goal were just for fun....

If every game played on this planet was to be analyzed by Richard the losers would always be categorized as not trying enough or "lacking in the desire to win department".

I thought TFC worked hard against PR but weren't creative enough and that's what cost them with a little lapse in concentration from their keeper. There wasn't a lot seperating the 2 teams, I guess it came down to both keepers play.

[Richard]

"weren't creative enough and .... little lapse in concentration from their keeper..."

117 shots on/at goal and none go in and you lose, not one counts. Might as well have been 500 shots, means the same. These are relatively highly paid professional athletes not kids in the park on the weekend. I expect more from them in terms of effort, concentration, cohesion and basic skills than I am seeing game after game.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

"weren't creative enough and .... little lapse in concentration from their keeper..."

17 shots on/at goal and none go in and you lose, not one counts. Might as well have been 500 shots, means the same. These are relatively highly paid professional athletes not kids in the park on the weekend. I expect more from them in terms of effort, concentration, cohesion and basic skills than I am seeing game after game.




So, your claim that they didn't have the desire to win is base on the fact they didn't score? Pretty simple analysis. If TFC had looked disinterested and had only 4-5 shots on goal I would probably agree with you but that wasn't the case.

As for the "they are pro" argument, do you realize that both teams are "pro"? Sometimes a lot of pro teams in a lot of sports lose a game when they were working hard and cared about the game, that's sport. Sometimes in pro sports pro players have mental lapses and the best have it (Zidane might be the best example of all in soccer). That's pro sports and it doesn't mean players are lacking desire to win. Just look at TFC Chad Barrett, a poor poor finisher, but a player who care a lot and who's working hard every game.

I thought the TFC-PR game was a hard fought battle where both teams did all they could to get a a favourable result. The lack of finishing is the reason why TFC lost not because of a lack of desire.

[Cheeta]

^ To my mind they weren't mentally prepared for the task at hand and payed the price. Sloppy, almost lazy 1st half. Very poor. If you want to spot your opponent the 1st 45 minutes don't complain when things don't work out in the last 45. And I say this even though I think I'm one of the least cynical about how close TFC were to winning that match, lazy 1st half or no.

If a few players show up tomorrow a bit sharper in the head and more urgent in the feet (not everyone, some players had a great match) I think TFC can still go to the group stage. It could get wild Tuesday.

[Mr.Impact]

I'm looking forward to the march up in coaching stratagies between Chris Cummins and Nick Dasovic vs. Colin Clarke and Adrian Whitbread. TFC has to find a way to break down that wall. Puerto Rico on the other hand, has to find a way to keep the game scorless as long as possible, and then look for the counter.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by Richard


quote:Originally posted by Rudi

I've yet to hear from you how I was wrong by saying such a thing.
They lost because the team simply wasn't good enough. Add one or two different players and the chances are the team would still have failed because one player does not a TEAM make and the TEAM was just not good enough. Get it, I can't state it much more simply Rudi, sage or otherwise?

We weren't good enough, but we were definately better than PR. It was just unlucky for the most part. PR didn't look threatening what so ever apart from the goal. TFC could've scored three goals if they just had the bounces go there way. That's what most of the guys here are saying. If both teams played like that again, nine times out of ten we would win.

[Richard]

Could've, would've, should've..... they didn't, couldn't, won't win that way.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Could've, would've, should've..... they didn't, couldn't, won't win that way.

Well, actually they probably would. The better team usually wins. Last week was just an exception. Everyone gets lucky sometimes.

I'm guessing you were one of the few people who think that Italy deserved to beat the Netherlands in the EURO 2000 semi finals.

[Richard]

Nope, I was merely making an observation about the TFC vs PRI game on the day. All the squirming, wriggling, prevaricating and excuses by TFC supporters aside (and I count myself a TFC supporter much of the time), TFC could not beat PRI when they really needed to. That is an immutable fact now. I hope they can pull it off on PRI's home turf but I am by no means confident it will happen.

[yankiboy]

quote:Originally posted by Macksam
The better team usually wins. Last week was just an exception. Everyone gets lucky sometimes.

This is true.

But I have a strong suspicion that my Islanders are going to beat TFC again tonight.

I'm not running smack. I'm just basing it on our CCL history at el JRL. We have beat clubs just at home at least as good as TFC (which is a good club).