Goodbye CONCACAF CL Coverage on CBC

[DoyleG]

Became a victim of the cuts, along with Radio One's the Inside Track.

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/media/story/2009/03/26/cbc-layoffs.html

[Raven]

Maybe Gol TV can step up and cover the CONCACAF CL???...no matter which team wins the Voyageurs cup . Will CBC still cover that?

[youllneverwalkalone]

Damn. I just picked up CBC Bold for the Santos match. I wonder if the "reductions" might mean the sister channel will still broadcast the matches? I guess that doesn't really save any money.

[Ed]

It didn't clearly say the CCL was cut. At least I don't have to pay for Blue Jays coverage any longer.
Here's the section:

"In CBC Sports, there will be reductions or cutbacks in coverage of:

* International figure skating.
* CONCACAF Champions League soccer.
* World aquatics.
* World athletics.
* Skiing.

The CBC will also drop its Blue Jays baseball telecasts."

[Daniel]

Too bad. Hopefully we'll still be able to see all games live, either through CBC.ca or with NeuLion, for example.

[mtl-supporter23]

Maybe this will be RSN's chance to pick up the tourney. Not likely though with all the Jays action they are playing on their network though...

[ottawaguy2009]

This is poor decision making. If anything, in times of economic hardship, people turn to sports. Football and boxing in the UK during the industrial revolution (hard times, toiling away in factories) were a way for the working masses to relax and be entertained. If anything we will need MORE sports coverage on TV. What are you going to do CBC? Fill those spots with re-runs of Little Mosque on the Prairie???

[jonovision]

quote:Originally posted by ottawaguy2009

This is poor decision making. If anything, in times of economic hardship, people turn to sports. Football and boxing in the UK during the industrial revolution (hard times, toiling away in factories) were a way for the working masses to relax and be entertained. If anything we will need MORE sports coverage on TV. What are you going to do CBC? Fill those spots with re-runs of Little Mosque on the Prairie???

Is the general consensus that CBC loses or makes money on TFC broadcasts?

[Portuguese Sensation]

Putting together a broadcast is extremely costly, so it doesn't surprise me to see these cuts by the CBC. Each broadcast is about $50,000 (non-HDTV) or $100,000 (HDTV) and with advertising on the decline and mediocore audiences at best - it makes it difficult to justify spending that amount of money.

Granted, the CBC kind of shoots itself in the foot by airing these sporting events LIVE on CBC Bold and then repeated on the main network in the middle of the night. And then people wonder why ratings are down for soccer and figure skating on CBC - you force people to go searching for it and you'll lose your audience.

Due to CBC's decision, I wonder if they'll form some sort of partnership with GolTV where maybe they could share the production costs or split the games where half are on CBC and the other half on GolTV?

I do doubt, however, that CBC will get rid of it completely. They signed that exclusive deal with FIFA so soccer is their biggest sports property (outside of the hockey of course). It would make sense to keep as much of it as they can in order to promote upcoming FIFA events such as the Confederations Cup and next year's 2010 World Cup.

PS - Long time reader, first time poster on this board :D

[Daniel]

Welcome to the board!

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by ottawaguy2009

This is poor decision making. If anything, in times of economic hardship, people turn to sports. Football and boxing in the UK during the industrial revolution (hard times, toiling away in factories) were a way for the working masses to relax and be entertained. If anything we will need MORE sports coverage on TV. What are you going to do CBC? Fill those spots with re-runs of Little Mosque on the Prairie???


The poor decision making has been the decision of successive Governments to slowly bleed CBC to death rather than either having the 'nades to just put it out of its misery or the 'nades to step up fund it properly.

Personally, there is very little in the sports world that they are cutting that I give a rats ass about aside from the soccer coverage. But rest assured, there are international aquatic fans who are not upset about the loss of CONCACAF Champs League coverage. But such is life when you are a fan of a fringe sport. Thankfully, I am just as certain as Steven Harper is that if the private networks do not cover it, then it doesn't need to be covered

[Richard]

The CBC receives the lowest government subsidy of any public broadcaster in the western industrial world, a situation being exacerbated now by Harper and his cronies in Ottawa for purely ideological reasons (Harper Conservatives despise public radio and TV). Blame the governments we vote into power in Ottawa, write to your member of parliament and make your feelings known. CBC primetime TV with the all Canadian lineup (before the cuts) and CBC radio are enjoying the highest ratings ever right now, indeed CBC TV is outdoing the competition in prime time ratings. 20 million Canadians tune in to CBC TV and radio or visit the CBC websites every week. Long live the CBC.

[red card]

Star writer thinks CBC will dump Raps & TFC once contract is over

Existing deals with the Raptors and TFC will protect them for now, though considering the low ratings those two produce it's doubtful they'll be around after the contracts expire.

I think CBC will dump the Raps since it appears more like a fill in the gap measure a la the Jays. They aren't doing any Basketball Day in Canada. But with CBC having FIFA tourneys, TFC fits in a bigger picture and rights are probably quite cheap - just need ratings to pick up.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/609147

[Impactfanfirenze]

welcome


quote:Originally posted by Portuguese Sensation

Putting together a broadcast is extremely costly, so it doesn't surprise me to see these cuts by the CBC. Each broadcast is about $50,000 (non-HDTV) or $100,000 (HDTV) and with advertising on the decline and mediocore audiences at best - it makes it difficult to justify spending that amount of money.

Granted, the CBC kind of shoots itself in the foot by airing these sporting events LIVE on CBC Bold and then repeated on the main network in the middle of the night. And then people wonder why ratings are down for soccer and figure skating on CBC - you force people to go searching for it and you'll lose your audience.

Due to CBC's decision, I wonder if they'll form some sort of partnership with GolTV where maybe they could share the production costs or split the games where half are on CBC and the other half on GolTV?

I do doubt, however, that CBC will get rid of it completely. They signed that exclusive deal with FIFA so soccer is their biggest sports property (outside of the hockey of course). It would make sense to keep as much of it as they can in order to promote upcoming FIFA events such as the Confederations Cup and next year's 2010 World Cup.

PS - Long time reader, first time poster on this board :D

[Tuscan]

I would hate to see the CCL coverage cut from CBC national and only played on CBC Bold. There were a few times when I wasn't able to get to a place that had Bold, and stayed up until midnight instead to watch the match.

Also, Portuguese Sensation, from Saskatoon no less. Good to see more Bridge City footie fans showing up.

[Portuguese Sensation]

Thanks for the warm welcome!

And don't worry Tuscan, I do not forsee the CBC moving their CCL coverage to only CBC Bold. If they're going to cut it, they'll cut it completely from the network. They don't save or lose money by having it on one channel over the other.

It'll be interesting to see what happens, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them share coverage with either GolTV or Sportsnet.

[Tuscan]

Oh whoopie! It's good to know that if they do cut it, it'll be gone COMPLETELY! [:p] Hell I'd hate for CBC to have to show any Champions League matches next season, considering they were probably my most looked forward to games of the entire year (aside from MNT TO and Montreal).

Yeah I get what you mean, and honestly if they are going to cut it, I hope they cut it completely so that another network can pick up the entire package for which ever Canadian club represents us this coming competition.

[Blue and White Army]

If they only stream it, that's good enough for me.

[Portuguese Sensation]

Again, even if they stream it - they still have to pay the large production costs associated with broadcasting a game. So if costs are what they're after, I'd assume they'll be sharing coverage with another network, but time will tell...

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The CBC receives the lowest government subsidy of any public broadcaster in the western industrial world, a situation being exacerbated now by Harper and his cronies in Ottawa for purely ideological reasons (Harper Conservatives despise public radio and TV). Blame the governments we vote into power in Ottawa, write to your member of parliament and make your feelings known. CBC primetime TV with the all Canadian lineup (before the cuts) and CBC radio are enjoying the highest ratings ever right now, indeed CBC TV is outdoing the competition in prime time ratings. 20 million Canadians tune in to CBC TV and radio or visit the CBC websites every week. Long live the CBC.


20 Million/week doesn't cut it in this world.

[Richard]

Come on, Total Canadian population is only 30 million!

[piltdownman]

CBC's rating are shockingly bad, They only have two shows in the top 30. Especially when you take into account that they spend more money on the main tv channel than CanWest Global does on their entire TV operations.


quote:Top Programs – Total Canada (English)
March 16 - 22, 2009

1 HOUSE Global Total M...... 20:00 21:00 2476
2 GREY'S ANATOMY CTV Total ...T... 21:00 22:00 2321
3 AMERICAN IDOL 8 AP CTV Total .T..... 20:00 22:00 2128
4 AMERICAN IDOL 8 AR CTV Total ..W.... 21:00 22:02 2110
5 AMAZING RACE 14 CTV Total ......S 20:00 21:00 1943
6 C.S.I. NEW YORK CTV Total ..W.... 22:02 23:00 1932
7 C.S.I. MIAMI CTV Total M...... 22:00 23:00 1908
8 DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES CTV Total ......S 21:00 22:01 1789
9 ER CTV Total ...T... 22:00 23:00 1787
10 CRIMINAL MINDS CTV Total ..W.... 20:00 21:00 1759
11 TWO AND A HALF MEN CTV Total M...... 21:00 21:31 1724
12 LAW AND ORDER:SVU CTV Total .T..... 22:00 23:00 1567
13 BONES Global Total ...T... 20:00 21:00 1552
14 NCIS Global Total .T..... 20:00 21:00 1501
15 CTV EVENING NEWS CTV Total MTWTF.. 18:00 19:00 1367
16 H.N.I.C. GAME #1 CBC Total .....S. 19:06 22:03 1274
17 24 Global Total M...... 21:00 22:00 1248
18 CORNER GAS CTV Total M...... 21:31 22:00 1195
19 C.S.I. CTV Total ...T... 20:00 21:00 1193
20 FAMILY GUY Global Total ......S 21:00 21:30 1192
21 C.S.I. CTV Total ....F.. 21:00 22:00 1175
22 CTV EVENING NEWS WKD CTV Total .....SS 18:00 19:00 1154
23 SIMPSONS Global Total ......S 20:00 20:30 1142
24 CRIMINAL MINDS CTV Total ....F.. 20:00 21:00 1064
25 THE MENTALIST CTV Total ......S 22:01 23:00 1061
26 C.S.I. CTV Total ....F.. 22:00 23:00 1029
27 CTV NATIONAL NEWS CTV Total MTWTFSS 23:00 23:30 1004
28 AMERICAN DAD Global Total ......S 21:30 22:00 968
29 JEOPARDY CBC Total MTWTF.. 19:30 20:00 961
30 DANCING/STARS 8 PERF 'A' Total M...... 20:00 22:02 930

[Cheeta]

^Interesting list. But it's just a statistic.

So "House" and "Grey's Anatomy" are 1-2. Interesting because the production budgets of [u]each</u> show individually likely exceeds what Global and CTV [u]spend as networks</u> for domestic original programing. Outside of sports & news that is.

Shrug. Big surprise. Canadians want quality programing. Global and CTV, unlike the CBC, aren't mandated to showcase Canadian talent. They're mandated to make money and follow the path of greatest economy.

CBC ratings will always pay the price for being forced to do too much with too little.

P.S. English Canada has long needed to take a page from Quebec and realize that financing "culture" (whatever that is), even in competition with private for-profit enterprise, is too important an issue to concede to the all mighty buck.

P.S.S. Is Global still around?

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta
So "House" and "Grey's Anatomy" are 1-2. Interesting because the production budgets of [u]each</u> show individually likely exceeds what Global and CTV [u]spend as networks</u> for domestic original programing. Outside of sports & news that is.

Global has been getting into the documentary side things in recent years. Low-cost production with a greater return. Money doesn't matter if you can spend it correctly. The cancellations from last season were blamed in part on the Leafs not making the playoffs.


quote:Originally posted by CheetaShrug. Big surprise. Canadians want quality programing. Global and CTV, unlike the CBC, aren't mandated to showcase Canadian talent. They're mandated to make money and follow the path of greatest economy.

CBC ratings will always pay the price for being forced to do too much with too little.

Global and CTV have spent huge amounts of money on domestic programs. Hard to find a succesful formula when the ideas of a pan-Canadian show don't fly well.


quote:Originally posted by CheetaP.S. English Canada has long needed to take a page from Quebec and realize that financing "culture" (whatever that is), even in competition with private for-profit enterprise, is too important an issue to concede to the all mighty buck.

Yet if you look at Radio-Canada, its works aren't that impressive when it comes to the production value. They don't need the big raitings to make it work since they are serving a very restricted market. The english side have tried the pan-Canadian idea in order to sell their goods to international distributors.

The CBC used to have excellent region programming until someone decided to make the network Toronto-centric.


quote:Originally posted by Cheeta
P.S.S. Is Global still around?


They are. Their state is a far more concern to peeople than the CBC.

[piltdownman]

CBC is full of foreign content itself. Just look at their schedule, Martha Stewart, The Simpson, Wheel of Fortune, Coronation Street, Jeopardy. The later is the only program on the Network other than hockey to get into the top 30.

If you look at the list the only CTV has a lot more Canadian content than CBC. Their news programs are in there three times, as is the only 'Canadian' sitcom 'Corner Gas'. I have looked at the ratings in previous weeks and the ratings for “Canadain Idol” and other uk reality show copies are always very good (Top 15) when they are on.

To me it seems that CBC's problem isn't that forced to do anything, its that they know that they cannot fail. I would expect those that make decisions at CTV and Global are a lot more vested than those at the CBC who know they will always have the government fat.

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG
Yet if you look at Radio-Canada, its works aren't that impressive when it comes to the production value. They don't need the big raitings to make it work since they are serving a very restricted market.

The SRC production values are top-notch for man drama series, notably because there's a talent pool of local behind-the-scenes talent that stays in Quebec, unlike English Canadians, who gravitate towards the bigger $ of American series, where they get paid better and work on big series.

BTW, here are the French-language ratings, with 14 shows garnering over 1 million viewers (with a French-language market being under 7m people) - at least 28 of the top 30 shows are local productions:

1 Star Académie - Le variété TVA ......S 19:30:00 21:36:00 2291
2 Star Académie - La quotidienne TVA MTWT... 19:29:00 20:00:00 1575
3 Dieu merci! TVA ......S 21:36:00 22:41:00 1358
4 Annie et ses hommes TVA M...... 20:00:00 21:00:00 1281
5 La Classe de 5e TVA ...T... 20:00:00 21:00:00 1202
6 Les Boys SRC M...... 21:00:00 21:30:00 1105
7 Juste pour rire TVA ......S 18:30:00 19:30:00 1098
8 Tout le monde en parle SRC ......S 20:00:00 22:25:00 1087
9 Les Gags TVA M...... 19:00:00 19:29:00 1060
10 Les Retrouvailles TVA ....F.. 20:00:00 22:00:00 1044
11 La Poule aux oeufs d'or TVA ..W.... 19:00:00 19:29:00 1035
12 Destinées TVA ..W.... 20:00:00 21:00:00 1032
13 Taxi 0-22 TVA ...T... 21:00:00 21:30:00 1018
14 L'Auberge chien noir SRC M...... 20:00:00 21:00:00 1009
15 Dr House TVA M...... 21:00:00 22:00:00 984
16 L TVA18h TVA MTWTF 180000 183000 978
16 Le TVA 18 heures TVA MTWTF.. 18:00:00 18:30:00 978
17 Les Retrouvailles TVA ....F.. 22:45:00 23:15:00 971
18 Providence SRC .T..... 20:00:00 21:00:00 915
19 Les Gags TVA .T..... 19:00:00 19:29:00 906
20 La Promesse TVA .T..... 21:00:00 22:00:00 895
21 Les Invincibles SRC ..W.... 21:00:00 22:00:00 879
22 Le 17 heures TVA MTWTF.. 17:00:00 18:00:00 861
23 Hockey Canadiens tue RDS .T..... 19:25:00 22:15:00 846
24 Hockey Canadiens Sam RDS .....S. 19:00:00 21:45:00 844
25 Hockey Canadiens WK RDS ...T... 19:30:00 22:08:00 809
26 Le Cercle TVA MTWTF.. 18:30:00 19:00:00 807
27 J.E. TVA ....F.. 19:00:00 20:00:00 807
28 Découverte SRC ......S 18:30:00 19:30:00 805
28 Histoires de filles TVA ...T... 19:00:00 19:29:00 731
30 Et Dieu créa...Laflaque SRC ......S 19:30:00 20:00:00 708

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG


quote:Originally posted by Cheeta
P.S.S. Is Global still around?


They are. Their state is a far more concern to peeople than the CBC.


Why's that?

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Solution: vote Liberal. The Conservatives have always hated the CBC, much like Republicans hate NPR. They see unbiased news as being biased against them, and actually think the likes of Fox News and the National Post are indeed fair and balanced. Stephen Harper has talked a few times about getting rid of the CBC altogether.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

CBC's rating are shockingly bad, They only have two shows in the top 30. Especially when you take into account that they spend more money on the main tv channel than CanWest Global does on their entire TV operations.


quote:Top Programs – Total Canada (English)
March 16 - 22, 2009

1 HOUSE Global Total M...... 20:00 21:00 2476
2 GREY'S ANATOMY CTV Total ...T... 21:00 22:00 2321
3 AMERICAN IDOL 8 AP CTV Total .T..... 20:00 22:00 2128
4 AMERICAN IDOL 8 AR CTV Total ..W.... 21:00 22:02 2110
5 AMAZING RACE 14 CTV Total ......S 20:00 21:00 1943
6 C.S.I. NEW YORK CTV Total ..W.... 22:02 23:00 1932
7 C.S.I. MIAMI CTV Total M...... 22:00 23:00 1908
8 DESPERATE HOUSEWIVES CTV Total ......S 21:00 22:01 1789
9 ER CTV Total ...T... 22:00 23:00 1787
10 CRIMINAL MINDS CTV Total ..W.... 20:00 21:00 1759
11 TWO AND A HALF MEN CTV Total M...... 21:00 21:31 1724
12 LAW AND ORDER:SVU CTV Total .T..... 22:00 23:00 1567
13 BONES Global Total ...T... 20:00 21:00 1552
14 NCIS Global Total .T..... 20:00 21:00 1501
15 CTV EVENING NEWS CTV Total MTWTF.. 18:00 19:00 1367
16 H.N.I.C. GAME #1 CBC Total .....S. 19:06 22:03 1274
17 24 Global Total M...... 21:00 22:00 1248
18 CORNER GAS CTV Total M...... 21:31 22:00 1195
19 C.S.I. CTV Total ...T... 20:00 21:00 1193
20 FAMILY GUY Global Total ......S 21:00 21:30 1192
21 C.S.I. CTV Total ....F.. 21:00 22:00 1175
22 CTV EVENING NEWS WKD CTV Total .....SS 18:00 19:00 1154
23 SIMPSONS Global Total ......S 20:00 20:30 1142
24 CRIMINAL MINDS CTV Total ....F.. 20:00 21:00 1064
25 THE MENTALIST CTV Total ......S 22:01 23:00 1061
26 C.S.I. CTV Total ....F.. 22:00 23:00 1029
27 CTV NATIONAL NEWS CTV Total MTWTFSS 23:00 23:30 1004
28 AMERICAN DAD Global Total ......S 21:30 22:00 968
29 JEOPARDY CBC Total MTWTF.. 19:30 20:00 961
30 DANCING/STARS 8 PERF 'A' Total M...... 20:00 22:02 930
And how many of those shows are Canadian? Not many. I'm sure most PBS shows don't get great ratings, either. You'll see the BBC get higher ratings because they have a much higher budget and they don't have a government working against them like the CBC do.

I know what will happen when CTV get ahold of sports that used to be on CBC, they'll put them on TSN, like they did when they prised away the rights to the World Cup.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by I_AM_CANADIAN

Solution: vote Liberal. The Conservatives have always hated the CBC, much like Republicans hate NPR. They see unbiased news as being biased against them, and actually think the likes of Fox News and the National Post are indeed fair and balanced. Stephen Harper has talked a few times about getting rid of the CBC altogether.

Sadly, the CBC is biased towards the Liberals. That can be easily seen as why people turn to CTV and Global for their news.

Why watch an arrogant, Toronto-centric, out of touch CBC when other networks give a damn about the region you live in.


quote:Originally posted by I_AM_CANADIAN

And how many of those shows are Canadian? Not many. I'm sure most PBS shows don't get great ratings, either. You'll see the BBC get higher ratings because they have a much higher budget and they don't have a government working against them like the CBC do.

Would you like to pay $250/year just for the right to have a TV?


quote:Originally posted by I_AM_CANADIANI know what will happen when CTV get ahold of sports that used to be on CBC, they'll put them on TSN, like they did when they prised away the rights to the World Cup.

Of course, CBC is trying to set up its own sports channel and it would mean that CBC Sports coverage would onto that.

But I don't hear a peep out of you complaining.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

To me it seems that CBC's problem isn't that forced to do anything, its that they know that they cannot fail. I would expect those that make decisions at CTV and Global are a lot more vested than those at the CBC who know they will always have the government fat.


The problem goes back to the poor management found in the CBC. They seem to have a more recent history of badly organizing their program schedule as a whole. Some of the problems include:

- Not giving the full support of promoting and proper time slots to CBC programs (The people behind "jPod" and "Intelligence" have made similar complaints)
- Poor handling of their CFL coverage during the last work dispute. It's been argued that is why the CFL has gone over to TSN.
- Ditto with Curling
- Poor local news coverage, especially when compared to private broadcasters.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA
Why's that?


CanWest has much more broader coverage of Canada than the CBC does. CanWest going under would wipe out 80% of the media in Western Canada and be just as bad elsewhere.

[Richard]

^ All the more reason to do away with media concentration. That's what has got Canwest into financial trouble now. They borrowed excessively for the heavily leveraged buyouts to create the huge multimedia conglomerate they are and now they can no longer support the huge debt load. If the various entities had been left independent we and they would all be in a much better situation.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

^ All the more reason to do away with media concentration. That's what has got Canwest into financial trouble now. They borrowed excessively for the heavily leveraged buyouts to create the huge multimedia conglomerate they are and now they can no longer support the huge debt load. If the various entities had been left independent we and they would all be in a much better situation.


The you support breaking up the CBC then?

[Richard]

^ I would support the selloff of CBC TV or its conversion to a real national PBS style service complimenting channels like TV Ontario and BC's Knowledge Network. Keep the radio network and CBC Newsworld. The TV service now is too similiar to everyday commercial TV, a clone of American network TV, but the radio service is unique and very high quality and Newsworld is outstanding.

[TFC07]

quote:Originally posted by I_AM_CANADIAN

Solution: vote Liberal. The Conservatives have always hated the CBC, much like Republicans hate NPR. They see unbiased news as being biased against them, and actually think the likes of Fox News and the National Post are indeed fair and balanced. Stephen Harper has talked a few times about getting rid of the CBC altogether.


Amen to that! :)

[Richard]

^ Agreed.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

The problem goes back to the poor management found in the CBC. They seem to have a more recent history of badly organizing their program schedule as a whole. Some of the problems include:

- Not giving the full support of promoting and proper time slots to CBC programs (The people behind "jPod" and "Intelligence" have made similar complaints)
- Poor handling of their CFL coverage during the last work dispute. It's been argued that is why the CFL has gone over to TSN.
- Ditto with Curling
- Poor local news coverage, especially when compared to private broadcasters.


Most of the time it seems to me that Global BC, CTV BC, and CBC Vancouver run the same local news items, though they sometimes vary the order in which they show them. However, if you live outside the Lower Mainland or Vancouver Island, that could be a problem in the very near future because CanWest is trying to sell off it's E!TV affliates in the interior.

[Richard]

^ Could that perhaps be because everybody is chasing the same news?

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

^ Could that perhaps be because everybody is chasing the same news?


I wasn't planning on critiquing what is or isn't important in the news. I'm just wondering what will happen with local news coverage in, say, the Okanagan if Global can't find a buyer for its Kelowna station. Are they going to shut it down?

[Richard]

Probably, along with several other small market stations. They just don't have the money to continue supporting these low profit or loss making ventures. CanWest like many other operations in North America, borrowed excessively during the boom times to support a rapacious acquisition spree, permitted because of relaxation of federal media concentration rules. Much of it was financed through leveraging of the new assets and cash acquired through the acquisitions. Now with reduced advertising revenues and shrinking markets for conventional TV/radio/newspapers they can no longer finance their excessive debt load and must shed some of their expenses. This is yet another example that bigger is not always better in the corporate world. Abitibi-Bowater, although obviously a different sector, is another current classic example of exactly this.

[nazzer]

Watching CHBC during their news hour where they show the local news first, and then the golabal BC news from Vancouver, and then the global national, and then local again we'll often see the same piece at least three times because they are all global news programs. A CHBC produced piece will appear on the kelowna news, and then that same piece will appear on the vancouver news. Also, we'll see a vancouver piece on the kelowna news and then the global vanoucouver news shows the same thing. It;s so annoying.

Bearcat, a few months ago when Global announced that they were going to shut down a large portion of the station in kelowna and they would produce our local news out of a studi in Vancouver (maybe victoria) there was a backlash from the community that was enough to cause them to reverse the decision and the station has remained in the community. So I think there is a proven marketplace for it and it should be able to be sold.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by nazzer

Watching CHBC during their news hour where they show the local news first, and then the golabal BC news from Vancouver, and then the global national, and then local again we'll often see the same piece at least three times because they are all global news programs. A CHBC produced piece will appear on the kelowna news, and then that same piece will appear on the vancouver news. Also, we'll see a vancouver piece on the kelowna news and then the global vanoucouver news shows the same thing. It;s so annoying.

Bearcat, a few months ago when Global announced that they were going to shut down a large portion of the station in kelowna and they would produce our local news out of a studi in Vancouver (maybe victoria) there was a backlash from the community that was enough to cause them to reverse the decision and the station has remained in the community. So I think there is a proven marketplace for it and it should be able to be sold.


Thanks for the update, nazzer. But it's still for sale, right? Is there a deadline?

Totally agree with you about the redundancy of news items. Also, I remember reading that the current station manager felt a big part of the Kelowna's station's problem was being saddled with Global's E!TV brand, which he felt didn't serve the area's demographic. Regardless, as Richard as alluded, CanWest has to do some serious restructuring in light of the economic times as well as people's viewing habits.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

CBC is full of foreign content itself. Just look at their schedule, Martha Stewart, The Simpson, Wheel of Fortune, Coronation Street, Jeopardy. The later is the only program on the Network other than hockey to get into the top 30.

If you look at the list the only CTV has a lot more Canadian content than CBC. Their news programs are in there three times, as is the only 'Canadian' sitcom 'Corner Gas'. I have looked at the ratings in previous weeks and the ratings for “Canadain Idol” and other uk reality show copies are always very good (Top 15) when they are on.

To me it seems that CBC's problem isn't that forced to do anything, its that they know that they cannot fail. I would expect those that make decisions at CTV and Global are a lot more vested than those at the CBC who know they will always have the government fat.


If I can add to this, one of the most successful Canadian shows ever in Trailer Park Boys, which was and still is an international hit, wasn't even made by the CBC.

[DoyleG]

It was announced in the Times Colonist that the CH station in Victoria will shut down at the end of August. The same goes with the station in Red Deer as well.

Kelowna will become a regular global affiliate.

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

CBC's rating are shockingly bad, They only have two shows in the top 30. Especially when you take into account that they spend more money on the main tv channel than CanWest Global does on their entire TV operations.


CBC has a mandate to go beyond the "Canadian Content" regulations set by CRTC. Are we really going to compare ratings between the CBC and private-sector broadcasters? Its like comparing apples and oranges. In an era of "value-for-money" centric Government, the CBC was a victim of significant cuts under both the Liberals and the Tory's, so one can't single out any one party... (While I'm a card carrying member of the Liberal Party, I hate partisanship...).

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by piltdownman

CBC is full of foreign content itself. Just look at their schedule, Martha Stewart, The Simpson, Wheel of Fortune, Coronation Street, Jeopardy.

If you look at the list the only CTV has a lot more Canadian content than CBC.

To me it seems that CBC's problem isn't that forced to do anything, its that they know that they cannot fail. I would expect those that make decisions at CTV and Global are a lot more vested than those at the CBC who know they will always have the government fat.


Yes, the CBC has recently started airing American programming as well. But this is a by-product of the cuts to CBC both the Liberals and the Tory’s have made. They need other sources of funding other than Government subsidies, and advertising revenue is one of them. American programming, while not Canadian content, helps in the cost-recovery department. However, CBC is still the overwhelming leader in Canadian content.

CBC also had a number of successful mini-series that have cracked the Top 20 in Canadian Drama including Shattered City (based on the Halifax disaster) and Trudeau. CBC tends to do a lot of mini-series that do very well, but are never given credit for because they are not on-going.

While CBC is government funded, keep in mind that as a Crown Corporation, they operate largely independent from the Federal Government. They are driven by ratings just like any other network, what is holding them back is their mandate to provide a higher level of Canadian content, that’s where the subsidies come in. Otherwise, staff and middle-managers at CBC are given rewarded or punished based on performance like any other broadcaster.

CBC has cut far more staff based over time than the rest of the public sector, subsidy or not.

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by Richard

The CBC receives the lowest government subsidy of any public broadcaster in the western industrial world, a situation being exacerbated now by Harper and his cronies in Ottawa for purely ideological reasons (Harper Conservatives despise public radio and TV). Blame the governments we vote into power in Ottawa, write to your member of parliament and make your feelings known. CBC primetime TV with the all Canadian lineup (before the cuts) and CBC radio are enjoying the highest ratings ever right now, indeed CBC TV is outdoing the competition in prime time ratings. 20 million Canadians tune in to CBC TV and radio or visit the CBC websites every week. Long live the CBC.


Just to reiterate your point. I'm pulling this out of my head based on Journal articles I've read while completing my Masters dissertation (so correct me if I'm wrong)... based on 2006 data, the UK Government spent about $7 billion to subsidize BBC, BBC Sports and BBC Radio programming (all domestic)....

On the other hand... the Federal Government spends only $1.6 billion to fund the CBC, CBC Radio and Radio-Canada (based on 2006 data). Since CBC is severely underfunded as a Public Broadcaster, the CBC TV was forced to introduce a cost-recovery program in the form of Advertising. The BBC is commercial free, CBC Radio remains commercial-free.

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Why watch an arrogant, Toronto-centric, out of touch CBC when other networks give a damn about the region you live in.



I find CBC is NOT Toronto Centric as some make it out to be. As a Western-Canadian myself, I find Westerners whine a lot about everything being Toronto-centric, and its just not true. Toronto gets its fair-share of the market based on their size. They happen to have a larger market than the Prairies.

Lets look at Canadian Drama on CBC from the East (Maritimes) to West (Pacific). This is by no means an exhaustive list of Canadian Drama. Of course, Canadian Drama is based on CRTC’s definition of what Drama is:

- "This Hour has 22 Min" & the former in-studio "Air Farce" are based in Halifax.
- Best of Just for Laughs is from Montreal
- "Little Mosque on the Prairie" which gained International fame is from Saskatchewan
- "Heart Land" and "Wild Roses" are both based on Alberta
- Da Vinchi's City Hall is based on a character from Vancouver
- Of course, you have Toronto based Drama like The Border, Sophie and Being Erica.

Lets be clear. Just because it isn't from Alberta, doesn't automatically mean its all from Toronto..

[kyam]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG


quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA
Why's that?


CanWest has much more broader coverage of Canada than the CBC does. CanWest going under would wipe out 80% of the media in Western Canada and be just as bad elsewhere.


I never understand people who advocate to disband our only National public broadcaster just to settle some partisan score...

CBC needs subsidies because they are the only broadcaster that is willing to take a chance on Canadian content that are often too risky for the private-sector to consider. Domestic Soccer in Canada would be considered one of those risky ventures.

The CONCACAF Champions League is in its infancy, and when funding is available, the CBC would be the only widely available broadcaster that would take a chance on a Canadian club participating in the CCL. Of course, if CBC was funded along the same level as BBC in the UK, the for-profit CBC Bold would not have been created, and instead, a CBC2 would air the CCL (similar to BBC2) would be widely available for everyone to see and build brand power of the domestic game.

When the Montreal Impact was in its infancy, Radio-Canada was the only channel that was willing to broadcast the Impact regularly. As a result, the Impact were able to get more widespread exposure and have improved brand power.

CBC was also originally the primary broadcaster for TFC in its first season...

If you broadcast it, they will come. Had TFC or the Impact failed to gain wide spread exposure, RogersSportsnet or TSN\RDS would never consider broadcasting or showing highlights of domestic club games...

Private broadcasters who air Canadian content (like Degrassi High or Corner Gas) do so for one reason, and thats to meet the bare minimum of CRTC regulations. The only way we can kill CBC, is if we ramp up the CRTC regulations on Private-broadcaster...

Otherwise, national public broadcasting should have a place for both drama and sports.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by kyam


quote:Originally posted by DoyleG


quote:Originally posted by BearcatSA
Why's that?


CanWest has much more broader coverage of Canada than the CBC does. CanWest going under would wipe out 80% of the media in Western Canada and be just as bad elsewhere.




CBC needs subsidies because they are the only broadcaster that is willing to take a chance on Canadian content that are often too risky for the private-sector to consider. Domestic Soccer in Canada would be considered one of those risky ventures.

The CONCACAF Champions League is in its infancy, and when funding is available, the CBC would be the only widely available broadcaster that would take a chance on a Canadian club participating in the CCL. Of course, if CBC was funded along the same level as BBC in the UK, the for-profit CBC Bold would not have been created, and instead, a CBC2 would air the CCL (similar to BBC2) would be widely available for everyone to see and build brand power of the domestic game.

When the Montreal Impact was in its infancy, Radio-Canada was the only channel that was willing to broadcast the Impact regularly. As a result, the Impact were able to get more widespread exposure and have improved brand power.

CBC was also originally the primary broadcaster for TFC in its first season...

If you broadcast it, they will come. Had TFC or the Impact failed to gain wide spread exposure, RogersSportsnet or TSN\RDS would never consider broadcasting or showing highlights of domestic club games...

Private broadcasters who air Canadian content (like Degrassi High or Corner Gas) do so for one reason, and thats to meet the bare minimum of CRTC regulations. The only way we can kill CBC, is if we ramp up the CRTC regulations on Private-broadcaster...

Otherwise, national public broadcasting should have a place for both drama and sports.


Well said, you will not find a better example to support your argument than LAST NIGHT!. Here we have the first game of the CCL being played and its not available anywhere other than a specialty channel that is owned by the club. It was arguably the biggest event in town last night judging from the turnout ( ie.: the Biggest crowd in TFC history)and the lead and billing up to game. The blue jays are out of it and CFL football is far behinf TFC in popularity. there was that buzz that we talk about. Not only in the stadium but also in the media.

And what does the private broadcaster ( in this case TSN) do? They air some meaningless MLS all star game that nobody here could give a rats ass about. So why do they air it? because its cheap programming. And that is why you need cbc because if we were to rely only on the private broadcasters, cheap programming ( and/or ROI) would always take precedence over what important and what the people want. Its cheap programming because the production costs are all born by ESPN in the US. And anything that they ( private broascadter) actually have to produce, what they'll do is hype the crap out things to spur demand and viewership regardless of the significance or important of the event.

Another excellent example from just this week. the Canadian open golf. Again, private broadcasters farm it out or outsource it to American broadcasters. And what happens, rain delays screw up the schedule forcing its completion on Monday. As result, since its of minor significance and low ratings for Americans ( but conversely much more important to canadians) they justifiably dont bother airing the conclusion on Monday so Canadians don t get to see it... I am glad that they did actually, because it teaches us all a lesson of why you need a broadcaster like the CBC and why you cant rely only on the private broadcasters in Canada.

Anything that has any kind of traction in this country, such NHL hockey, Curling, and the grey cup, is due to the CBC. Because they aired for years and it built over many years a brand, a history and culture. And its because of that that these programs/sports and brands became a valuable property to the private broadcaster to invest in and buy the rights. All things equal, had there been only private broadcasters in the 50's and 60's, we all be walking around with NC Tar heels and Duke Blue devils gear and paraphenalia.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick
Well said, you will not find a better example to support your argument than LAST NIGHT!. Here we have the first game of the CCL being played and its not available anywhere other than a specialty channel that is owned by the club. It was arguably the biggest event in town last night judging from the turnout ( ie.: the Biggest crowd in TFC history)and the lead and billing up to game. The blue jays are out of it and CFL football is far behinf TFC in popularity. there was that buzz that we talk about. Not only in the stadium but also in the media.

And what does the private broadcaster ( in this case TSN) do? They air some meaningless MLS all star game that nobody here could give a rats ass about. So why do they air it? because its cheap programming. And that is why you need cbc because if we were to rely only on the private broadcasters, cheap programming ( and/or ROI) would always take precedence over what important and what the people want. Its cheap programming because the production costs are all born by ESPN in the US. And anything that they ( private broadcaster) actually have to produce, what they'll do is hype the crap out things to spur demand and viewership regardless of the significance or important of the event.

Its easy for you to blame private media for your troubles because it's an easy scapegoat. If the CBC is so vital, then why didn't the CBC carry the game? Simple, TFC didn't want the game on any network television. If it was going to be shown, it was to be on their own network. Period.

The blame falls square on the shoulders of TFC. They have the contracts and could easily have had the game broadcast on national television. They are to blame. Full Stop.

quote:Originally posted by Free kick
Another excellent example from just this week. the Canadian open golf. Again, private broadcasters farm it out or outsource it to American broadcasters. And what happens, rain delays screw up the schedule forcing its completion on Monday. As result, since its of minor significance and low ratings for Americans ( but conversely much more important to canadians) they justifiably dont bother airing the conclusion on Monday so Canadians don t get to see it... I am glad that they did actually, because it teaches us all a lesson of why you need a broadcaster like the CBC and why you cant rely only on the private broadcasters in Canada.

Yet whose been looking after the Canadian Open for all these years? None other than the private broadcasters themselves. They looked after the Canadian Open and the defunct GVO/ACC and went out of their way to promote it. Where was the CBC during this time? They didn't even bother to consider golf to be of importance. Private broadcasters won out because they could divert the resources needed to cover such an event.

Another epic fail by Freekick.


quote:Originally posted by Free kick
Anything that has any kind of traction in this country, such NHL hockey, Curling, and the grey cup, is due to the CBC. Because they aired for years and it built over many years a brand, a history and culture. And its because of that that these programs/sports and brands became a valuable property to the private broadcaster to invest in and buy the rights. All things equal, had there been only private broadcasters in the 50's and 60's, we all be walking around with NC Tar heels and Duke Blue devils gear and paraphenalia.


The Oilers were surviving long before CBC tossed them a bone. They used private broadcasters to build up their fan base. Ditto with regards to the Flames, Canucks and every other NHL team in Canada bar the Leafs.

CBC did little to promote curling in Canada. It was TSN doing the all the work for the game and keeping it in the public eye. CBC simply kept all the spoils to itself.

CTV had a very long history with the CFL including the first refusal to the Grey Cup. Yet that didn't stop them from sharing broadcasting duties with the CBC or even with the pre-Global Canadian Football Network. The CFL never threw its whole lot in with the CFL for a good reason. They left the mother corp because they knew that TSN could commit to promoting the league regardless of the cost.

Freekick has committed the most Epic Fail, which is a very spectacular fall given his previous standards.

[Marc]

Is it a more epic fail than "5-0 Portugal" or Canadian Warriors? If anyone is the resident epic fail expert around here, it's likely you. ;)

But back on topic, it's fun to pick and choose what you like and don't in order to build an argument, but in the end, your point doesn't add up.

The reason we have such a variety of sports on TV is due to the CBC, and their support of sports in their amateur and non-mainstream phases - e.g. when they don't make private broadcasters any money.

There is a reason why we here in Canada can watch a wider variety of sports on basic cable than you can in the States - and it's not because of TSN or CanWest. CBC has created marketable entities out these things, supported them with their mandate (because they don't have to make money) and then when it becomes profitable, the other stations gobble it up.

You may be ideologically opposed to the CBC, and that's fine. But your stance, unfortunately, is not justified through the line of argumentation you're trying to use.

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by kyam


quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Why watch an arrogant, Toronto-centric, out of touch CBC when other networks give a damn about the region you live in.



I find CBC is NOT Toronto Centric as some make it out to be. As a Western-Canadian myself, I find Westerners whine a lot about everything being Toronto-centric, and its just not true. Toronto gets its fair-share of the market based on their size. They happen to have a larger market than the Prairies.

Lets look at Canadian Drama on CBC from the East (Maritimes) to West (Pacific). This is by no means an exhaustive list of Canadian Drama. Of course, Canadian Drama is based on CRTC’s definition of what Drama is:

- "This Hour has 22 Min" & the former in-studio "Air Farce" are based in Halifax.
- Best of Just for Laughs is from Montreal
- "Little Mosque on the Prairie" which gained International fame is from Saskatchewan
- "Heart Land" and "Wild Roses" are both based on Alberta
- Da Vinchi's City Hall is based on a character from Vancouver
- Of course, you have Toronto based Drama like The Border, Sophie and Being Erica.

Lets be clear. Just because it isn't from Alberta, doesn't automatically mean its all from Toronto..



It's funny too, because the national private networks are much more Toronto centric than the CBC. CTV is super Toronto-centric - the only non-Toronto Canadian show they have is Corner Gas - and I don't think there is one Canadian show on Global that isn't Toronto-based. And TSN is practically the Toronto Sports Network ;)

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Marc


quote:Originally posted by kyam


quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Why watch an arrogant, Toronto-centric, out of touch CBC when other networks give a damn about the region you live in.



I find CBC is NOT Toronto Centric as some make it out to be. As a Western-Canadian myself, I find Westerners whine a lot about everything being Toronto-centric, and its just not true. Toronto gets its fair-share of the market based on their size. They happen to have a larger market than the Prairies.

Lets look at Canadian Drama on CBC from the East (Maritimes) to West (Pacific). This is by no means an exhaustive list of Canadian Drama. Of course, Canadian Drama is based on CRTC’s definition of what Drama is:

- "This Hour has 22 Min" & the former in-studio "Air Farce" are based in Halifax.
- Best of Just for Laughs is from Montreal
- "Little Mosque on the Prairie" which gained International fame is from Saskatchewan
- "Heart Land" and "Wild Roses" are both based on Alberta
- Da Vinchi's City Hall is based on a character from Vancouver
- Of course, you have Toronto based Drama like The Border, Sophie and Being Erica.

Lets be clear. Just because it isn't from Alberta, doesn't automatically mean its all from Toronto..



It's funny too, because the national private networks are much more Toronto centric than the CBC. CTV is super Toronto-centric - the only non-Toronto Canadian show they have is Corner Gas - and I don't think there is one Canadian show on Global that isn't Toronto-based. And TSN is practically the Toronto Sports Network ;)


Exactly, and that's what you would expect from private networks, they're going to tailor programing and coverage to meet the needs and interests of the largest audience which happens to be in Southern Ontario.

[Portuguese Sensation]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

Here we have the first game of the CCL being played and its not available anywhere other than a specialty channel that is owned by the club. It was arguably the biggest event in town last night judging from the turnout ( ie.: the Biggest crowd in TFC history)and the lead and billing up to game. The blue jays are out of it and CFL football is far behinf TFC in popularity. there was that buzz that we talk about. Not only in the stadium but also in the media.


If CFL Football is so far behind the popularity of TFC, then why is the CFL consistantly on top of the ratings while TFC barely squeaks into the Top 10 - if at all?

I love TFC and I love soccer - but when it comes to Canadian teams and/or North American soccer (MLS), it's a mere blip on the radar screen.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

Is it a more epic fail than "5-0 Portugal" or Canadian Warriors? If anyone is the resident epic fail expert around here, it's likely you. ;)

I'm more than happy to be the expert since Freekick's rant has replaced my predictions as the biggest Epic Fail? Anybody with a basic understanding of how the country works would easily avoid the failures that Freekick has made.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

But back on topic, it's fun to pick and choose what you like and don't in order to build an argument, but in the end, your point doesn't add up.

You never read the post before responding didn't you? If you did, you would easily learn that Freekick was wrong on his blame for the CCL and how golf was covered. He also has a rather poor history when it comes to sports coverage in Canada.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

The reason we have such a variety of sports on TV is due to the CBC, and their support of sports in their amateur and non-mainstream phases - e.g. when they don't make private broadcasters any money.

Nice try. If what you were saying is true, then CBC would be covering up the hilt when it comes to amateur and non-mainstream sports. Planting a flag doesn't cut it in this world, which is why those said sports you have talked about have largely left the CBC as a whole.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

There is a reason why we here in Canada can watch a wider variety of sports on basic cable than you can in the States - and it's not because of TSN or CanWest. CBC has created marketable entities out these things, supported them with their mandate (because they don't have to make money) and then when it becomes profitable, the other stations gobble it up.

Yet you fail to provide any evidence to back up your claims. You tend to give CBC far more credit than it deserves.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

You may be ideologically opposed to the CBC, and that's fine. But your stance, unfortunately, is not justified through the line of argumentation you're trying to use.


Neither is yours. The reason for CBC being in the dumps is because of people like yourself. Don't blame me or other factors for its problems. It's problems lie in the city of Toronto and people like yourself.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by kyam
Just to reiterate your point. I'm pulling this out of my head based on Journal articles I've read while completing my Masters dissertation (so correct me if I'm wrong)... based on 2006 data, the UK Government spent about $7 billion to subsidize BBC, BBC Sports and BBC Radio programming (all domestic)....

On the other hand... the Federal Government spends only $1.6 billion to fund the CBC, CBC Radio and Radio-Canada (based on 2006 data). Since CBC is severely underfunded as a Public Broadcaster, the CBC TV was forced to introduce a cost-recovery program in the form of Advertising. The BBC is commercial free, CBC Radio remains commercial-free.


Your Masters dissertation must suck or you decide to be choosy.

The journal articles you used would've told you that the BBC is funded through a "television license" that all Britons must pay. In more recent times, there's been a push to allow private British broadcasters to take some of that revenue. The only portion of the BBC that is not funded through this is the World Service, which gets funding from the Foreign Office.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by kyam
- "This Hour has 22 Min" & the former in-studio "Air Farce" are based in Halifax.
Air Farce was based in Toronto, leading them to end their old cross-country radio tours because they needed to be in Toronto to do the television program.

As for 22 Minutes, it was Toronto management that took Mercer off the show for his own Toronto-based program. 22 Minutes hadn't been relevant for a long time.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
- Best of Just for Laughs is from Montreal
Done based on the Montreal Comedy festival. Not applicable.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
- "Little Mosque on the Prairie" which gained International fame is from Saskatchewan
Done largely in Toronto with mainly Toronto actors and with a Toronto-based theme (A man going from Toronto to lead a mosque in Saskatchewan). It can be clearly seen in its production values.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
- "Heart Land" and "Wild Roses" are both based on Alberta
Based on Alberta doesn't mean anything. The latter example was clearly done for a Toronto audience. Family dramas like "Heart Land" don't count either since they can be done, and have been, by private broadcasters.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
- Da Vinchi's City Hall is based on a character from Vancouver
Which failed because people in Toronto didn't lean that one should exactly mimic real life people.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
- Of course, you have Toronto based Drama like The Border, Sophie and Being Erica.
Sophie was a rip-off of a French-Language comedy while the Border needed a star from CSI Miami to help get it off the ground.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
Lets be clear. Just because it isn't from Alberta, doesn't automatically mean its all from Toronto..

Sadly, it is from Toronto and it explains the poor performance of the CBC in recent years.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by kyam
I never understand people who advocate to disband our only National public broadcaster just to settle some partisan score...

And the CBC hasn't been throughout its history?


quote:Originally posted by kyamCBC needs subsidies because they are the only broadcaster that is willing to take a chance on Canadian content that are often too risky for the private-sector to consider. Domestic Soccer in Canada would be considered one of those risky ventures.

The private-sector has taken far more risks with Canadian content than the CBC has in recent years. You're just making an excuse for poor CBC management.


quote:Originally posted by kyamThe CONCACAF Champions League is in its infancy, and when funding is available, the CBC would be the only widely available broadcaster that would take a chance on a Canadian club participating in the CCL. Of course, if CBC was funded along the same level as BBC in the UK, the for-profit CBC Bold would not have been created, and instead, a CBC2 would air the CCL (similar to BBC2) would be widely available for everyone to see and build brand power of the domestic game.

The CBC isn't carrying it which shows that they haven't really an faith in competitions outside of the World Cup. Funding has nothing to do with that.

As for CBC Bold, its in the position it is in because the CBC didn't stick to its original mandate for the network. CBC Bold began as CBC Country Canada, something that you decided not to put into your rant to begin with. We can see where your problems with broadcasting come from, and your education has let you poorly prepared for it.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
When the Montreal Impact was in its infancy, Radio-Canada was the only channel that was willing to broadcast the Impact regularly. As a result, the Impact were able to get more widespread exposure and have improved brand power.

Radio-Canada is a separate issue, and lumping it with the CBC is nothing but an insult.


quote:Originally posted by kyam
CBC was also originally the primary broadcaster for TFC in its first season...

Yet it was having Sportsnet and The Score that helped give its early profile and kept it going when the CBC magic began to wear off.


quote:Originally posted by kyamIf you broadcast it, they will come. Had TFC or the Impact failed to gain wide spread exposure, RogersSportsnet or TSN\RDS would never consider broadcasting or showing highlights of domestic club games...

RDS was broadcasting the Impact for many years before they went onto Radio-Canada. Domestic networks didn't broadcast because there was no nation-wide element to cover it. Besides, Canadian team needed their regional coverage to keep their popularity. It was the reason Sportsnet was created.


quote:Originally posted by kyamPrivate broadcasters who air Canadian content (like Degrassi High or Corner Gas) do so for one reason, and thats to meet the bare minimum of CRTC regulations. The only way we can kill CBC, is if we ramp up the CRTC regulations on Private-broadcaster...

Yet the CBC does the exact same thing and you praise them for being the great people they are? This last quote sums up how clueless you are about anything relating to Canada, especially with regards to broadcasting.

Come back when you have actually learned something correct, not because of your political bias.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Portuguese Sensation
If CFL Football is so far behind the popularity of TFC, then why is the CFL consistantly on top of the ratings while TFC barely squeaks into the Top 10 - if at all?

I love TFC and I love soccer - but when it comes to Canadian teams and/or North American soccer (MLS), it's a mere blip on the radar screen.


The thing that was missed here was the power to put this game on a national network was in the hands of TFC. They have contracts with CBC and Sportsnet for games but didn't use that leverage. Instead, they put the game on their own network in order to try to boost sales of it to the public.

The blame for this falls on TFC alone. Yet it won't stop some fans (Freekick, Kyam, and Marc) from trying to find a conspiracy against Canadian soccer.

[DoyleG]

TFC-Houston drew 51,000 on CBC. (http://thestar.blogs.com/sportsmedia/2009/07/here-are-the-top-rated-sports-events-in-english-canada-over-the-weekend-as-always-provided-by-bbm-nielsen-media-research1.html#comments)

[Trident]

Wait...did Kyam actually say that the SRC "took a chance on the Impact in their infancy"?

I find it tough to listen to this guy, if he believes that.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Trident

Wait...did Kyam actually say that the SRC "took a chance on the Impact in their infancy"?

I find it tough to listen to this guy, if he believes that.


He did.

[Rudi]

I'm glad to see DoyleG has rediscovered that chip on his shoulder.

[Rudi]

I'm glad to see DoyleG has rediscovered that chip on his shoulder.

[Marc]

Air Farce - yes, stopped the cross country tours. But then if that's the case, why not give Mercer credit for travelling the cross left right and centre for his "Toronto based show" when the vast majority of his content is not from Toronto? Oh, because it doesn't support your argument!

Little Mosque - strong western content can't be discounted, jsut because some of it is filmed in Toronto, where the actors, studios, and the industry is. Find me 8 trained muslim Saskatchewanian actors please Doyle, and a significant soundstage, and you'll have the same productionv alues regardless of where it was filmed. There is a reason Corner Gas is filmed in Sask - because half of it takes place outside, the need for sets is minimal, and it's full of white people.

Little mosque - 'production values': are you suggesting that Saksatchewan production values are lower than Toronto values? Do they grainy TV there? Would they build ****ty sets? What are you suggesting, that because the show is high quality it doesn't meet local production values and therefore isn't representative of Canada? WTF?

Da Vinci's inquest - very popular, lasted seven seasons. That's an eternity for American shows, let alone Canadian ones! If it was so unpalatable to Canadians, it wouldn't have last 13 shows, let alone seven seasons.

Just for Laughs - doesn't count? Is that because it proves you wrong? If CBC was Toronto centric, they'd have pulled the festival from Montreal to Toronto according to your logic. The show is pure Montreal, it's in every second act, they have stuff from the streets, it has a Montreal feel. Totally applicable, doesn't get invalidated because it doesn't meet your flawed line of reasoning.

Heartland - doesn't count because it can be done by anyone? WTF reasoning is this? How many Canadian family dramas do we have on the air today on other Canadian networks? Zero. So obviously it can't be done by everyone. Oh wait, there's a semi-family but mainly teen drama called Degrassi on CTV...a spin off of an old, wildly popular, very Canadian show that was on, wait, wait, wait, the CBC! Doyle + logic = window.

Wild Roses - for a Toronto audience? Where you involved in the show and the marketing? So Alberta people don't like drama made with good production values? You don't have to like it, I think it's crap personally, but that's not for a Toronto audience. A Toronto audience doesn't want to see some people preening around an oil field and a ranch...because it doesn't resonate with them. Seriously, just because it proves you wrong doesn't mean you can just swipe it off the table, once again. CBC wouldn't survive if it were for a Toronto audience, and Wild Roses definitely wouldn't, because it's in Toronto where there is the toughest competition, and therefore some of CBC's lowest viewership.

Amateur sports - the reason we don't see them on the CBC as much any more is due to the cutbacks! The thing that let the CBC show these sports was that they didn't have to pull a profit. That's the model, exactly: CBC shows something repeatedly, builds demand until it becomes a marketable product that the private networks can take over.

The problem is, you need to keep constant funding so that the CBC can build up the next round of money-losing sports. With the funding cuts, the CBC has to go for things that they can reasonably expect to develop ad revenue - which isn't javelin, skeleton, track and equestrian but instead Coronation Street, Everybody Loves Maria, and the Maple Leafs. CBC has to show fewer and fewer amateur sports because they don't bring in any money unless you show them, regularly, over a long period of time, becuase the subsidies just aren't there to sustain long-term losses. Bump the funding, you bump the amateur sports.

The CBC is one of the reasons the Olympics does so well on Canadian TV - that CBC could build it an audience, essentially devote the entire network to it (no Young and the Restless or Everybody Loves Raymond to bump) and build an audience for sports that generally, no one would watch, and that, for the most part, Canadians are not competitive in.

Now, I don't agree with my tax dollars paying for IOC TV rights, but that's another line of reasoning against the CBC - one you could make very soundly, and very easily.

Doyle, if you don't like the CBC there are so many cogent lines of reasoning that you can use; eg. waste of money; detracts from funding more important programs; the state shouldn't be in a private marketplace; distrots competition; inefficient bloated corporation; the issue of biased news coverage as CBC is scared to offend the governing party; etc - they're easy to make and are often convincing. Your vendetta, unfortunately, needs to find another outlet that is not the CBC - if you want it to make any rationale sense at all and for others to support it. But as well all know, that's not really of concern to you here.

But the argument that CBC hasn't fostered unique sports, or that it is Toronto-centric, is compeltely false, and actually, completely the opposite.

[Richard]

Well said Marc.

[Soro17]

DoyleG, we get it, you don't like the CBC. Spare us the logic-defying attempts at reasoning to jusify your dislike. Actually, keep it up - it is highly amusing display of mental gymnastics. Why don't you tell us how the overuse of clips from CBS, ABC and CNN makes CTV news better than CBC news.

[the biologist]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

But the argument that CBC hasn't fostered unique sports, or that it is Toronto-centric, is compeltely false, and actually, completely the opposite.I'm not a CBC/SRC hater. For my part in Québec, they are way more daring than TVA, the equivalent of CTV to give an idea. Each and every week I check the ratings and TVA ALWAYS gets about 25 of the first 30 places with badly translated shows (Talkin's never synchronized with the lips, awful expressions from France like bordel de merde) like The biggest loser, So you think you can dance, America's got talent. Name it, it's there. I always knock my head on the wall when I check the ratings. At least, SRC tries something different and I think that's the same with CBC when you compare it with CTV & Global.

BUT, THAT BEING SAID...

When it comes to pro sports, it's always been Toronto-centric. FOR YEARS I'm counting the number of Maple Leafs games broadcasted compared to number of the 5 other teams. The results were pathetic. FOR YEARS AND YEARS, we were literally forced to watch on CBC 6 Montreal the Maple Leafs' game on Saturday nights. TOTALLY DISGUSTING. Now, it's been 2 years they changed their broadcast schedule trying to balance it a little bit more (do people out east and out west really prefer the Maple Leafs over the Habs...)but often it is still a local broadcasting of the game. Rememnber Ron McLean saying "Well in Québec and the Atlantic it will be the Habs and for the rest it's gonna be TO". I really don't want to insult you guys ouy there but hey the Atlantic represents only about 8% of all the population. It's worst for Ottawa, they never get their games showed outside the limits of the city.

And then again you've got Don Cherry who'd kill his mother if it could permit the Maple Leafs to kick Ottawa's or Montreal's ass. CBC has some regards over the NHL schedule as it is one of the major broadcasters in the league. It gives some jewels like "Every first Saturday of new regular season has to have the Maple Leafs at home against either the Sens or the Habs", "Every Hockey day in Canada, the Leafs must play at home", etc. Even if there's no game in TO, all the staff is in TO like the private broadcaster TSN is doing.

As for the CFL, when they were showing games, it was like TO: 10, EDM: 6, MTL: 5 and the rest 4, 3, 3, 2, 2. It was so obviously TO-biased that only people from TO didn't (and still don't ?) realize.

As for the MLB, did they ever show Expos games ? THEY NEVER DID. It was all about the BJ. Wait, they did broadcast some... it was on Canada days AGAINST TORONTO, IN TORONTO.

As for the NBA, did they ever show Grizz games ? So why the Raptors ?

As for Soccer, they were NEVER interested in that sport until TORONTO FC made its apparition, and then zoooooo... we've got a deal with MLS to show some TO-based soccer. Very good for the cause for sure, BUT WHY NOT THE IMPACT AND THE CAPS ??? Radio-Canada already has a deal with the USL, so if CBC REALLY WANTS to show some soccer, why don't they fight to get the rights for USL in Canada ?

Final point: the color commentary and analysis. If your team was/is unfortunately playing against TO, then good luck having them neutral. I must admit it has changed a bit but remember Bob Cole saying "OH BABY WHAT A GREAT MOVE, WHAT A GOAL" if Mats Sundin scored and if it was Saku Koivu, "Well it looked like nothing but the puck found the net" was all he would get from him.

CBC is the public broadcaster so its mission is not to please the greater audience possible (you achieve that by being TO-centric and by giving importance only to net ratings), but to please people from the most regions, cities and provinces possible at the same time.

[Marc]

Hahahahahahaha oh I hear ya, Cherry and Cole drive me nuts too! Ohhh baby!, I agree when it comes to Hockey Night in Canada specifically.

But that's a symptom of the problem, I think...while it's always been an issue with top tier pro sports to some extent, and HNIC specifically, it's gotten worse over the last five to ten years.

I agree that the CBC is supposed to represent/pander to/placate all regions equally, and I think as a whole they do a pretty good job, but the problem is that, with funding nosediving, they have to make up those dollars through advertizing.

Which team will garner the best ad revenue? The Maple Leafs, unfortunately for us non-Leaf fans, and other Toronto-based teams.

When you start cutting their funding, it all becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

Air Farce - yes, stopped the cross country tours. But then if that's the case, why not give Mercer credit for travelling the cross left right and centre for his "Toronto based show" when the vast majority of his content is not from Toronto? Oh, because it doesn't support your argument!

If it's not the vast majority, why move him? He was doing the exact same things with 22 Minutes and would travel the country to do his work. CBC brass could easily keep him in Halifax at their studios and provided work for people in Halifax by using his show.

So why go to Toronto? Guess the CBC wanted to make sure that the network didn't become a victim of his jokes. Your own inability to figure this out is rather troubling.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Little Mosque - strong western content can't be discounted, jsut because some of it is filmed in Toronto, where the actors, studios, and the industry is. Find me 8 trained muslim Saskatchewanian actors please Doyle, and a significant soundstage, and you'll have the same productionv alues regardless of where it was filmed. There is a reason Corner Gas is filmed in Sask - because half of it takes place outside, the need for sets is minimal, and it's full of white people.


Hard to respond to a quote with a lot of spelling errors in it. Quite clear that you didn't think before you posted. It's also clear that you must have been drinking when you made such stupid comments. Corner Gas has the same level of production as Little Mosque but did their work at SaskStudios, which is more than equipped to handle television production. As for the need for "trained Muslims", I didn't realized that Toronto was the only place where bigotry was legal.

You tend to forget that part of the CBC mandate is to bring new talent on stage. Yet you would rather use Toronto actors because they are from that city. No wonder why Little Mosques ratings have gone downhill.



quote:Originally posted by Marc

Da Vinci's inquest - very popular, lasted seven seasons. That's an eternity for American shows, let alone Canadian ones! If it was so unpalatable to Canadians, it wouldn't have last 13 shows, let alone seven seasons.

Kyam was using Da Vinci's City Hall. Different show. Try again.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Just for Laughs - doesn't count? Is that because it proves you wrong? If CBC was Toronto centric, they'd have pulled the festival from Montreal to Toronto according to your logic. The show is pure Montreal, it's in every second act, they have stuff from the streets, it has a Montreal feel. Totally applicable, doesn't get invalidated because it doesn't meet your flawed line of reasoning.

You obviously never watch the program. The comedians that are shown on the CBC show are generally non-Canadians. In the eyes of the CANCON fanatics, this is a violations of such rules. Yet when the CBC break the, you find all the stupid excuses to avoid the subject. While that is going on, you accuse the private networks of just filling the requirements. Don't complain when I use your own standards against you. Try actually being sober before you even post again.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Heartland - doesn't count because it can be done by anyone? WTF reasoning is this? How many Canadian family dramas do we have on the air today on other Canadian networks? Zero. So obviously it can't be done by everyone. Oh wait, there's a semi-family but mainly teen drama called Degrassi on CTV...a spin off of an old, wildly popular, very Canadian show that was on, wait, wait, wait, the CBC! Doyle + logic = window.

Yet you wouldn't Call Degrassi that since it was originally a CBC production. Yet it goes to CTV and you dismiss it as nothing. Once again, family-friendly dramas are easy to do because they just become filler. What does Heartland go up against on Canadian televison? A Canadian comedy called 'Da Kink in My Hair" that is shown on Global. Once again, I use the standards that you apply to broadcasting. So quite being a whinny bastard when someone actually applies your standards.

BTW, the current Degrassi is a continuation, not a spin-off.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Wild Roses - for a Toronto audience? Where you involved in the show and the marketing? So Alberta people don't like drama made with good production values? You don't have to like it, I think it's crap personally, but that's not for a Toronto audience. A Toronto audience doesn't want to see some people preening around an oil field and a ranch...because it doesn't resonate with them. Seriously, just because it proves you wrong doesn't mean you can just swipe it off the table, once again. CBC wouldn't survive if it were for a Toronto audience, and Wild Roses definitely wouldn't, because it's in Toronto where there is the toughest competition, and therefore some of CBC's lowest viewership.

A drama with the subplots of money and sex. I've seen the show myself and it certainly isn't quality drama. It certainly seemed to resonate with Toronto since it was the only place where it drew ratings before it was canceled. People in Alberta were quick to learn that it was a cheap Dallas knockoff, which only people in the big city of Toronto could enjoy. After all, it fits with your cities political stereotypes.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Amateur sports - the reason we don't see them on the CBC as much any more is due to the cutbacks! The thing that let the CBC show these sports was that they didn't have to pull a profit. That's the model, exactly: CBC shows something repeatedly, builds demand until it becomes a marketable product that the private networks can take over.

Yet you haven't provided any evidence of that occurring as I had demanded. Any proof? Didn't think so.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

The problem is, you need to keep constant funding so that the CBC can build up the next round of money-losing sports. With the funding cuts, the CBC has to go for things that they can reasonably expect to develop ad revenue - which isn't javelin, skeleton, track and equestrian but instead Coronation Street, Everybody Loves Maria, and the Maple Leafs. CBC has to show fewer and fewer amateur sports because they don't bring in any money unless you show them, regularly, over a long period of time, becuase the subsidies just aren't there to sustain long-term losses. Bump the funding, you bump the amateur sports.

Nice excuse. Funding has **** all to do with their covering of amateur sports. They lose their sports becuase they've spen so much time pissing people off that they take their business elsewhere. The COA did that with it's part in Olympic broadcasting rights. CBC could easily have matched what the private consortium was proposing (when these same people would try and slit each others throats). Instead, they go an antagonize the COA by choosing to go against amateur sports and lost the television rights.

You claim funding shortages but the CBC breaks the bank for HNIC and for FIFA events. Yet they have never granted amateur sports nothing more than a couple of hours on a Saturday to ply their trade. Except, you have to give that spot to TFC because you would burn down CBC headquarters if you didn't get what you wanted.

That's management problems, not financial ones. Clearly you can't tell the difference between the two.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

The CBC is one of the reasons the Olympics does so well on Canadian TV - that CBC could build it an audience, essentially devote the entire network to it (no Young and the Restless or Everybody Loves Raymond to bump) and build an audience for sports that generally, no one would watch, and that, for the most part, Canadians are not competitive in.

Yet you would be far more offended if they did show amateur sports since many of them would lead to TFC getting knocked off the air. Yet you accuse me of having warped thinking.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Now, I don't agree with my tax dollars paying for IOC TV rights, but that's another line of reasoning against the CBC - one you could make very soundly, and very easily.

Another example of your warped thinking. You miss the whole point of funding amateur sports to begin with.


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Doyle, if you don't like the CBC there are so many cogent lines of reasoning that you can use; eg. waste of money; detracts from funding more important programs; the state shouldn't be in a private marketplace; distrots competition; inefficient bloated corporation; the issue of biased news coverage as CBC is scared to offend the governing party; etc - they're easy to make and are often convincing. Your vendetta, unfortunately, needs to find another outlet that is not the CBC - if you want it to make any rationale sense at all and for others to support it. But as well all know, that's not really of concern to you here.

But the argument that CBC hasn't fostered unique sports, or that it is Toronto-centric, is compeltely false, and actually, completely the opposite.

Blame Haper-Bush politicians, budget cuts, private broadcasters for CBC's problems. Everyone is to blame but yourselves.

The CBC is in the position that it finds itself now because of supporters like. You talk about building national icon but don't want to be bothered with doing what it took to maintain it. You cry about the lacks of coverage for amateur sports but you would cry more if it prevented you from seeing your favorite programs. Its people like you that have turned me off CBC since you people are afraid to admit that CBC management is to blame, regardless of how much money goes in. To criticize would be basically committing a sin. You are clearly someone who doesn't want to work to make things better but only do what is the minimum required. No need for politics or funding in that regard.

You helped create the problems at CBC. Not me.

[the biologist]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

Hahahahahahaha oh I hear ya, Cherry and Cole drive me nuts too! Ohhh baby!, I agree when it comes to Hockey Night in Canada specifically.

But that's a symptom of the problem, I think...while it's always been an issue with top tier pro sports to some extent, and HNIC specifically, it's gotten worse over the last five to ten years.

I agree that the CBC is supposed to represent/pander to/placate all regions equally, and I think as a whole they do a pretty good job, but the problem is that, with funding nosediving, they have to make up those dollars through advertizing.

Which team will garner the best ad revenue? The Maple Leafs, unfortunately for us non-Leaf fans, and other Toronto-based teams.

When you start cutting their funding, it all becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You said it yourself: it's been an issue for a while now. It's not worst, it's just the same old sh*t going on again and again. It's not [u]financial</u>, it's [u]cultural</u>.

During the "golden years" (sic) of Jean Chrétien, CBC/SRC funding was pretty high and the situation was absolutely the same. Liberals have their core in the TO area, so the funding goes principally for a TO-based content. Sadly, we can't argue that Toronto + Liberals + CBC = Reality. I agree the cut is far to be a valuable argument to excuse their TO-biased & Liberals-biased vision of the network.

But still, I'm totally against the way Harper is treating the public TV. The problem is it's always about politics, this time is no different. But as any other public company, politics will always have full control on its fate.

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Blame Haper-Bush politicians, budget cuts, private broadcasters for CBC's problems. Everyone is to blame but yourselves.

The CBC is in the position that it finds itself now because of supporters like. You talk about building national icon but don't want to be bothered with doing what it took to maintain it. You cry about the lacks of coverage for amateur sports but you would cry more if it prevented you from seeing your favorite programs. Its people like you that have turned me off CBC since you people are afraid to admit that CBC management is to blame, regardless of how much money goes in. To criticize would be basically committing a sin. You are clearly someone who doesn't want to work to make things better but only do what is the minimum required. No need for politics or funding in that regard.

You helped create the problems at CBC. Not me.

I learned something new today.

In the DoyleG Universe, the TV viewer has to "work" to create content that he wants to see. If a Canadian TV station is not producing shows that DoyleG wants to see, it's clearly the other TV viewers' fault for not "working" beyond the "minimum" requirements of television viewing (whatever those are).

Especially if they happen to be from Toronto.

DoyleG, I suppose you're going to blame people who drive Pontiac cars for that company's financial troubles too, right? It's the same logic, blame the consumer for a product's faults rather than the producer.

All piss-taking aside, I'm glad you're back to your neo-con blowhard self. It was getting boring around here.

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by the biologist


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Hahahahahahaha oh I hear ya, Cherry and Cole drive me nuts too! Ohhh baby!, I agree when it comes to Hockey Night in Canada specifically.

But that's a symptom of the problem, I think...while it's always been an issue with top tier pro sports to some extent, and HNIC specifically, it's gotten worse over the last five to ten years.

I agree that the CBC is supposed to represent/pander to/placate all regions equally, and I think as a whole they do a pretty good job, but the problem is that, with funding nosediving, they have to make up those dollars through advertizing.

Which team will garner the best ad revenue? The Maple Leafs, unfortunately for us non-Leaf fans, and other Toronto-based teams.

When you start cutting their funding, it all becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
You said it yourself: it's been an issue for a while now. It's not worst, it's just the same old sh*t going on again and again. It's not [u]financial</u>, it's [u]cultural</u>.

During the "golden years" (sic) of Jean Chrétien, CBC/SRC funding was pretty high and the situation was absolutely the same. Liberals have their core in the TO area, so the funding goes principally for a TO-based content. Sadly, we can't argue that Toronto + Liberals + CBC = Reality. I agree the cut is far to be a valuable argument to excuse their TO-biased & Liberals-biased vision of the network.

But still, I'm totally against the way Harper is treating the public TV. The problem is it's always about politics, this time is no different. But as any other public company, politics will always have full control on its fate.


Golden years with Chrétien? The Liberals cut CBC funding by 30 percent from 1993 to 1998, and then more afterward. They started the whole mess, Harper's just being consistent the federal Liberal legacy (not that I agree with either of their actions.)

[Cyrus]

Rumour around Ottawa said that Chretien HATED the CBC/Radio-Canada, because of it's anti-Liberal party, pro-Bloq editorial stance. And Harper HATED the CBC/Radio-Canada because of it's pro-Liberal party, anti-Conservative editorial stance. Because one guy was watching in French and the other in English.

Because of the fact that CBC couldn't maintain a consistent editorial stance, and was in effect running two separate news rooms in Montreal and Toronto, they created lots of enemies and made not nearly enough friends. And the government subsidy business is all about having friends. Because when there is a couple of billion dollars on the table in front of a cabinet meeting, you need somebody to stick up for you.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Marc

Is it a more epic fail than "5-0 Portugal" or Canadian Warriors?



I always wondered why it is that "the 5-0 Portugal" perdiction is the one that stuck.

There has been some better ones in my opinion


1) "A MLS team would be devestating to Canadian soccer"

2) "Any Canadian MLS team will end up in a "crash and burn"

and my favourite of all time, favorite

3) the suggestions that Canadians would be treated as foreigners on an MLS team in Canada.


There is some good entertainment in these two threads

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5044&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=MLS

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5299&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=MLS

[Rudi]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

There is some good entertainment in these two threads

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5044&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=MLS

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5299&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=MLS





Some amazing foreshadowing in those threads, not only by DoyleG but by another prominent board member who I will not name.

[loyola]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by Free kick

There is some good entertainment in these two threads

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5044&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=MLS

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5299&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=MLS





Some amazing foreshadowing in those threads, not only by DoyleG but by another prominent board member who I will not name.


Some were predicting that a MLS team in Toronto would result in the death of the other 2 Canadians clubs (MTL and Vancouver)...Funny when you consider that Vancouver will be in MLS soon and we have strong rumours about MTL being the next expansion team to be announce.

[Cheeta]

^ Interesting read those 5 year old topics.

While I still feel MLS coming to Canada and scooping the major markets has absolute benefits I also still feel MLS in Canada's major centres is hindering USL expansion outside Vancouver/Toronto/Montreal. But I think the jury may be still out on that one although I'm cynical.

In a perfect world Canadian footie fans have those three MLS franchises and four or five 1st Division franchises growing out of and because of MLS and not in-spite-of. Maybe yet. Guess we'll have to wait and how things play out once things get sorted in Montreal.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by loyola


quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by Free kick

There is some good entertainment in these two threads

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5044&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=MLS

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5299&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=MLS





Some amazing foreshadowing in those threads, not only by DoyleG but by another prominent board member who I will not name.


Some were predicting that a MLS team in Toronto would result in the death of the other 2 Canadians clubs (MTL and Vancouver)...Funny when you consider that Vancouver will be in MLS soon and we have strong rumours about MTL being the next expansion team to be announce.


there were some people who were anticipating that getting a foot in the door with one club would pave the way for the other two. That turned out to be accurate. I skimmed through all of those posts in the two threads and aside from DoyleG, Luis and maybe Argh1 , there nothing that anyone said that would make them blush today.

In fact, Even Grizzly was a super enthusiastic. check this quote by Grizzly :D :

"I think even one professional soccer team getting national media coverage and decent audiences will raise the profile of the game as a spectator sport. This will help the remaining A-league teams and hasten their entrance into the MLS as well as bettering the prospects for smaller cities to establish successful A-league teams."

Also in the running for the crystal ball award: "An Observer"

[BearcatSA]

Grizzly: Kreskin's heir apparent!

[Gian-Luca]

My prediction of media coverage in that thread might get an honourable mention in the Voyageur's Kreskin award, although overall I think it would lose out to the ones already suggested.

However, at the opposite end of the spectrum, if we could find the thread where there was a prediction that an MLS team in Toronto would average 3000 in attendance per game, that would be very fun to look back upon.

[BearcatSA]

^I'll give you that honorable mention for the Kreskin Award: you have a very respectable track record on this forum IMO.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Soro17

DoyleG, we get it, you don't like the CBC. Spare us the logic-defying attempts at reasoning to jusify your dislike. Actually, keep it up - it is highly amusing display of mental gymnastics. Why don't you tell us how the overuse of clips from CBS, ABC and CNN makes CTV news better than CBC news.


I can't being defying logic when my views are based in pure reality. That's something CBC fanatics can never seem to understand. I'm just waiting for the day that people like yourself blame the Jews for the CBC's current problems.

As for CTV, you wouldn't make complaints about the CBC doing that because they don't.

Wait...

oh fiddlesticks, they do the same thing as well. Here come the apologists.

Do you even bother to think that CTV and Global actually care about the various regions of Canada to the point to let them have their own local coverage. Otherwise, it wouldn't explain why the CBC is being slapped around in the ratings and the CBC moving to a 90-minute news format.

But go ahead and keep making excuses for the CBC, as that what your ilk do best.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Is it a more epic fail than "5-0 Portugal" or Canadian Warriors?



I always wondered why it is that "the 5-0 Portugal" perdiction is the one that stuck.

There has been some better ones in my opinion


1) "A MLS team would be devestating to Canadian soccer"

2) "Any Canadian MLS team will end up in a "crash and burn"

and my favourite of all time, favorite

3) the suggestions that Canadians would be treated as foreigners on an MLS team in Canada.



Sadly, I've been correct in all three cases.

BTW, you still haven't answered my original post. Just admit you were in a mentally retarded state and that your post was wrong. Refusing to do so means that you will carry the inept mantle for the foreseeable future.

As for Rudi, you could never figure out politics if your life depended on it. I will take that you were suffering from sever Brain damage when you made your idiotic post.

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by Free kick

There is some good entertainment in these two threads

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5044&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=MLS

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5299&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=MLS


Some amazing foreshadowing in those threads, not only by DoyleG but by another prominent board member who I will not name.


I actually stand by everything I suggested, still think I am largely correct although clearly wrong in my argument with Doyle that MLSE would not be able to find a way to discriminate against Canadians, as this has clearly occured - albeit, currently with a sunset clause on that ability. A search of other threads will also reveal that I suggested that Vancouver and Montreal would only be admitted to MLS if the economics were such that the league needed expansion and there were no american teams able to come in (Check) and that Toronto would wildly exceed the attendance figures suggested by virtually all TO Vs (Check). We will never know what might have happened had TFC stripped Vancouver and Montreal of their best Canadians although in hindsight, I suspect that I was overly pessimistic given that both are generally well run and their fans do not seem to have been put off by a higher foreign presence on the field when it has occured.

So now it appears that we are hitting the minimum acceptable thresh hold that I suggested was palatable to me - 3 Canadian MLS teams, although we still have the discriminatory extra americans rules in place. Lucky - from a strictly soccer perspective - that speculation replaced substance in the american economy some time ago and it all came crashing around them in the last 12 months. Nevertheless, it has occured. Now lets get those 4-5 USL teams.

[Portuguese Sensation]

Here's another suggestion - when your local TV station or newspaper does a good job in covering soccer or puts out a good story, how about dropping them an email or a quick phone call sayin thanks and that you appreciate the coverage. Sometimes a simple Thank You can go a long way.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG


quote:Originally posted by Free kick


quote:Originally posted by Marc

Is it a more epic fail than "5-0 Portugal" or Canadian Warriors?



I always wondered why it is that "the 5-0 Portugal" perdiction is the one that stuck.

There has been some better ones in my opinion


1) "A MLS team would be devestating to Canadian soccer"

2) "Any Canadian MLS team will end up in a "crash and burn"

and my favourite of all time, favorite

3) the suggestions that Canadians would be treated as foreigners on an MLS team in Canada.



Sadly, I've been correct in all three cases.

Mind explaining the logic?

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Macksam
Mind explaining the logic?


1. Look at poster's name.
2. If it's DoyleG, disregard and forget.
3. Repeat as often as necessary.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Portuguese Sensation

Here's another suggestion - when your local TV station or newspaper does a good job in covering soccer or puts out a good story, how about dropping them an email or a quick phone call sayin thanks and that you appreciate the coverage. Sometimes a simple Thank You can go a long way.


That's a really good point (I believe you're in the sports media, correct?). On a smaller scale those things really make more of a difference than many may think.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon


quote:Originally posted by Rudi


quote:Originally posted by Free kick

There is some good entertainment in these two threads

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5044&whichpage=1&SearchTerms=MLS

http://www.canadian-soccer.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5299&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=MLS


Some amazing foreshadowing in those threads, not only by DoyleG but by another prominent board member who I will not name.


I actually stand by everything I suggested, still think I am largely correct although clearly wrong in my argument with Doyle that MLSE would not be able to find a way to discriminate against Canadians, as this has clearly occured - albeit, currently with a sunset clause on that ability. A search of other threads will also reveal that I suggested that Vancouver and Montreal would only be admitted to MLS if the economics were such that the league needed expansion and there were no american teams able to come in (Check) and that Toronto would wildly exceed the attendance figures suggested by virtually all TO Vs (Check). We will never know what might have happened had TFC stripped Vancouver and Montreal of their best Canadians although in hindsight, I suspect that I was overly pessimistic given that both are generally well run and their fans do not seem to have been put off by a higher foreign presence on the field when it has occured.

So now it appears that we are hitting the minimum acceptable thresh hold that I suggested was palatable to me - 3 Canadian MLS teams, although we still have the discriminatory extra americans rules in place. Lucky - from a strictly soccer perspective - that speculation replaced substance in the american economy some time ago and it all came crashing around them in the last 12 months. Nevertheless, it has occured. Now lets get those 4-5 USL teams.


But you know full well that at that time of the thread, what was stated and implied was that Canadians in the MLS team in TO would have the foreign status and the domestic content rules would apply in such a way so that TFC would be treating american players for the domestic content. In other words same rule, no different than say Columbus or Colorado. That is NOT what MO or TFC was getting at when they supposedly argued to have the rule relaxed after the first year. AT NO TIME WAS TFC trying to discriminate against Canadians; show me where it was ever suggested by TFC to have the domestic rule scrapped. Suggesting the the actual numbers are unfair is one thing, and trying to get the rule scraped is another.

Even so, there were no such rules when the NASL was around and yet there was always a canadian presence or identity on every Canadian team. Teams always had Cnd players because it makes sense for a whole host of logical reasons. That's why that initial notion stood out in my mind as one of the most far fetched suggestions ever to come out from this forum.

Your second point is also a stretch. Most of us suggested that Montreal and Vancouver were real possibilities not because we thought fan support would have to "wildly" exceed expectation but because it was important for someone from Canada to get the foot in the door. NOBODY here came close to predicting sellouts of 20K for three straight years. And I am sure we would have been more than fine with numbers along the line of Columbus. I was predicting all along that all they needed was a season ticket base of 5-7K and average attendances of 12-14K. That is about what Columbus gets and I am sure that MLS and the owners of the Caps and Impacts are also realistically thinking along those lines. Given what those teams currently draw, that makes it attainable. It didn't hurt that the revenues were strong for TFC but all that did was spur Kerfoot and Saputo into action rather than changing the picture for MLS in how they view Canadian clubs as expansion candidates. If they're in, its because their capable and viable candidates not because there is nobody else; there is nobody else cause there is nobody as good and dont you think that at, say, 10 million many more expansion coandidates would be there?

[Gordon]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick


But you know full well that at that time of the thread, what was stated and implied was that Canadians in the MLS team in TO would have the foreign status and the domestic content rules would apply in such a way so that TFC would be treating american players for the domestic content. In other words same rule, no different than say Columbus or Colorado. That is NOT what MO or TFC was getting at when they supposedly argued to have the rule relaxed after the first year. AT NO TIME WAS TFC trying to discriminate against Canadians; show me where it was ever suggested by TFC to have the domestic rule scrapped. Suggesting the the actual numbers are unfair is one thing, and trying to get the rule scraped is another.

Even so, there were no such rules when the NASL was around and yet there was always a canadian presence or identity on every Canadian team. Teams always had Cnd players because it makes sense for a whole host of logical reasons. That's why that initial notion stood out in my mind as one of the most far fetched suggestions ever to come out from this forum.

Your second point is also a stretch. Most of us suggested that Montreal and Vancouver were real possibilities not because we thought fan support would have to "wildly" exceed expectation but because it was important for someone from Canada to get the foot in the door. NOBODY here came close to predicting sellouts of 20K for three straight years. And I am sure we would have been more than fine with numbers along the line of Columbus. I was predicting all along that all they needed was a season ticket base of 5-7K and average attendances of 12-14K. That is about what Columbus gets and I am sure that MLS and the owners of the Caps and Impacts are also realistically thinking along those lines. Given what those teams currently draw, that makes it attainable. It didn't hurt that the revenues were strong for TFC but all that did was spur Kerfoot and Saputo into action rather than changing the picture for MLS in how they view Canadian clubs as expansion candidates. If they're in, its because their capable and viable candidates not because there is nobody else; there is nobody else cause there is nobody as good and dont you think that at, say, 10 million many more expansion coandidates would be there?


First, you mistake the statement "I was wrong" as the same as "Doyle was right". If you read what I was saying in my arguments in that thread you will see that I was quite clearly wrong in my assertions. I am not intereted in getting into any misguided semantical debate about "discrimination". A certain number of american players are treated as "domestic" in Toronto while the reciprocal is not in place for Canadians at American franchises. That is discrimination. Period. It is obtuse to argue otherwise. It is currently occuring, and will occur until the day that TFC's roster requirements are identical to that of every other MLS team. And for the record, I have said since day one that if MLS adopted a rule whereby Canadians and American counted as domestic anywhere in the league, I would be one happy camper and could care less about the makeup of the TFC roster. NASL is a good example - and an example where Canadians also dotted the rosters of American teams based strictly on merit.

The second point about attendance was that there is a significant underestimation of the appetite for soccer in this country that occurs on this board. My estimate for TFC was 16,000+ - made pre-Beckham - because I happen to believe that we have not even begun to scratch the surface of what is possible in this country, mostly because of the swollen numbers of the cult of impotence that permeates the game in this country. If you think small you stay small. I am tired of all the small thinking, the paralysing fear of failure and the willingness to accept table scraps instead of fending for ones self. I don't believe we are impotent, reject the arguments that we are impotent and challenge constantly those of you who try to rationalize or argue in favour of impotence. Sorry about that. I know it makes many uncomfortable.

The point about TFC attendence was completely unrealted to my third point about the chances of Montreal and Vancouver joining MLS.

Edit: Incidently, the use of "you" in teh second paragraph should be taken in the broader context and is not directed specifically at anyone, most especially Free Kick. There are definitely legit arguments that are opposed to my view points and I do not discount or minimize those arguments, particularly when they come from people who have obviously put some thought and maybe some reseach into them.

[BearcatSA]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

[And for the record, I have said since day one that if MLS adopted a rule whereby Canadians and American counted as domestic anywhere in the league, I would be one happy camper and could care less about the makeup of the TFC roster. NASL is a good example - and an example where Canadians also dotted the rosters of American teams based strictly on merit.

That was my mindset, as well. And I believe we will be seeing more younger Canadians dot MLS rosters in the immediate future (next year, prior Vancouver (Montreal?) in 2011.

[Macksam]

quote:Originally posted by Gordon


quote:Originally posted by Free kick


But you know full well that at that time of the thread, what was stated and implied was that Canadians in the MLS team in TO would have the foreign status and the domestic content rules would apply in such a way so that TFC would be treating american players for the domestic content. In other words same rule, no different than say Columbus or Colorado. That is NOT what MO or TFC was getting at when they supposedly argued to have the rule relaxed after the first year. AT NO TIME WAS TFC trying to discriminate against Canadians; show me where it was ever suggested by TFC to have the domestic rule scrapped. Suggesting the the actual numbers are unfair is one thing, and trying to get the rule scraped is another.

Even so, there were no such rules when the NASL was around and yet there was always a canadian presence or identity on every Canadian team. Teams always had Cnd players because it makes sense for a whole host of logical reasons. That's why that initial notion stood out in my mind as one of the most far fetched suggestions ever to come out from this forum.

Your second point is also a stretch. Most of us suggested that Montreal and Vancouver were real possibilities not because we thought fan support would have to "wildly" exceed expectation but because it was important for someone from Canada to get the foot in the door. NOBODY here came close to predicting sellouts of 20K for three straight years. And I am sure we would have been more than fine with numbers along the line of Columbus. I was predicting all along that all they needed was a season ticket base of 5-7K and average attendances of 12-14K. That is about what Columbus gets and I am sure that MLS and the owners of the Caps and Impacts are also realistically thinking along those lines. Given what those teams currently draw, that makes it attainable. It didn't hurt that the revenues were strong for TFC but all that did was spur Kerfoot and Saputo into action rather than changing the picture for MLS in how they view Canadian clubs as expansion candidates. If they're in, its because their capable and viable candidates not because there is nobody else; there is nobody else cause there is nobody as good and dont you think that at, say, 10 million many more expansion coandidates would be there?

A certain number of american players are treated as "domestic" in Toronto while the reciprocal is not in place for Canadians at American franchises. That is discrimination. Period. It is obtuse to argue otherwise. It is currently occuring, and will occur until the day that TFC's roster requirements are identical to that of every other MLS team.

Be that as it may, I don't think MLSE are sitting in their offices going "Great, now we can discriminate against Canadian players." We all have our opinions about them, but they are smart people and know the future success of Toronto FC lies on developing good Canadian talent. That ties into them wanting to market the men's national team as well. Using the angle of watching Canada play because they have TFC players on the team can go along way.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Macksam


quote:Originally posted by Gordon


quote:Originally posted by Free kick


But you know full well that at that time of the thread, what was stated and implied was that Canadians in the MLS team in TO would have the foreign status and the domestic content rules would apply in such a way so that TFC would be treating american players for the domestic content. In other words same rule, no different than say Columbus or Colorado. That is NOT what MO or TFC was getting at when they supposedly argued to have the rule relaxed after the first year. AT NO TIME WAS TFC trying to discriminate against Canadians; show me where it was ever suggested by TFC to have the domestic rule scrapped. Suggesting the the actual numbers are unfair is one thing, and trying to get the rule scraped is another.

Even so, there were no such rules when the NASL was around and yet there was always a canadian presence or identity on every Canadian team. Teams always had Cnd players because it makes sense for a whole host of logical reasons. That's why that initial notion stood out in my mind as one of the most far fetched suggestions ever to come out from this forum.

Your second point is also a stretch. Most of us suggested that Montreal and Vancouver were real possibilities not because we thought fan support would have to "wildly" exceed expectation but because it was important for someone from Canada to get the foot in the door. NOBODY here came close to predicting sellouts of 20K for three straight years. And I am sure we would have been more than fine with numbers along the line of Columbus. I was predicting all along that all they needed was a season ticket base of 5-7K and average attendances of 12-14K. That is about what Columbus gets and I am sure that MLS and the owners of the Caps and Impacts are also realistically thinking along those lines. Given what those teams currently draw, that makes it attainable. It didn't hurt that the revenues were strong for TFC but all that did was spur Kerfoot and Saputo into action rather than changing the picture for MLS in how they view Canadian clubs as expansion candidates. If they're in, its because their capable and viable candidates not because there is nobody else; there is nobody else cause there is nobody as good and dont you think that at, say, 10 million many more expansion coandidates would be there?

A certain number of american players are treated as "domestic" in Toronto while the reciprocal is not in place for Canadians at American franchises. That is discrimination. Period. It is obtuse to argue otherwise. It is currently occuring, and will occur until the day that TFC's roster requirements are identical to that of every other MLS team.

Be that as it may, I don't think MLSE are sitting in their offices going "Great, now we can discriminate against Canadian players." We all have our opinions about them, but they are smart people and know the future success of Toronto FC lies on developing good Canadian talent. That ties into them wanting to market the men's national team as well. Using the angle of watching the Canada because they have TFC players on them can go along way.


Exactly my thinking at that time when that discussion was going on. I can see them not even bothering to get involved in soccer if there weren't the opportunity to showcase Canadian players and to be a contributor to player deveopment in canada . Soccer is not like the NBA where you have less than handfull of athletes and who are canadian and can compete at that level.

Its bad for the corporate image for them to take a stand to the extent that was being suggested and not even.

[Macksam]

That's absolutely true.