Whitecaps sign Valente and free agent Lyle Martin [Archive]

Johnnie Monster

03-26-2007, 10:58 PM

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

At the moment I see TFC making a concerted effort to get good Canadian players while the Impact and Caps are extremely lazy in this endeavour.

You'll find no greater supporter of Canadian football than me, but I strongly disagree that the Caps have any obligations to develop Canadian talent.

The Caps are a private business, and as such their only objective should be to grow financially through tickets, advertising and merchandising.

The best way for them to do that is to field a winning team, and they pulled that off quite nicely this past season with a decent balance of Canadian and US players, not to mention an English keeper.

The fact is, 95% of Vancouver's "fans" don't have a clue who on the team is Canadian and who is American. Until ethnicity and nationalism becomes important to soccer moms and grandpas (and it won't!) it will have no bearing on roster choices, nor should it.

If you want Canada to have any teams at all, you've got to have fan support. You get that by fielding a winning product, not a Canadian one.

You could make an argument that maybe Montreal [u]should</u> have an obligation to field Canadians. They're substantially propped up by tax dollars that came from Canadian pockets in Quebec.

And Toronto is "making an effort" to find Canadians because they're contractually obligated to. US players count against their import limit, do they not?

If fingers are to be pointed anywhere concerning the underdevelopment of Canadian talent, look no further than our own back yard. The CSA is crap, our provincial associations are perpetually screwing the pooch and our colleges and unis don't have the bucks to crank out the kind of talent you see coming out of the US.

So why do the Caps field Americans?

I'll let you in on a dirty little secret.... they're often a little bit better than us. Maybe not by much, but just enough.

Krammerhead

03-26-2007, 11:52 PM

While I'll agree with Johnnie about the Whitecaps not being obligated to develop Canadian soccer players I'll disagree that these players are being signed because there are no better Canadians available. As Grizzly mentioned it is because the coach is an American and only knows/cares about the young American talent. Perhaps Lilley, who has MLS coaching aspirations, wants to develop lots of young American talent that will one day move to MLS with him.

youllneverwalkalone

03-26-2007, 11:53 PM

although the business of football at the lower levels should be concerned with developing talent to sell on to larger leagues and clubs. i don't think we're quite there in canada, but hopefully mls, tfc, and kerfoots own youth club intiatives will earn some transfer fees for the canadian clubs one day. it's really the best way to obtain long-term fiancial stability.

Grizzly

03-27-2007, 12:06 AM

I disagree that sports clubs have no obligation to develop local talent. In fact, any sort of business should have some commitment to its community and sports clubs in particular as they are a special type of business. You can have the attitude that a business should be run on purely capitalist principles but if I am going to support a business I would like to see it as one run by integrity. And all sports clubs receive generous gifts from government whether directly or indirectly through tax benefits. I am sure if an accountant were to look at the financial records of the Caps he could find a lot of government revenue.

I don't have a problem with clubs having a reasonable number of foreigners who are top performers that help the team win like Caig and Gjertson and who raise the level of play in the league. I have a problem with the mediocre players being foreigners when just as talented Canadian players are sitting on the bench. I also have a problem with Canadian teams signing developmental foreign players. The development roster should be reserved for developing Canadians.

AlanDouglas

03-27-2007, 02:30 AM

First of all Joey Gjertsen wasn't an established star when the Whitecaps signed him. He was a rookie with no pro experience. That's how it works - you sign players, most don't work out, some do. The broader you cast your net, the more fish you catch.

Second, the Whitecaps are NOT signing fewer new Canadians. They are signing just as many new Canadians as before. What is happening though is that the team is carrying a large roster and seeing more player turnover. There have been a lot more new signings under Lilley than previous years, and the extra new players have typically been American. But the number of new Canadian signings has not decreased.

In 2005-06 under Lilley, the Whitecaps signed NINE Canadians who had not played for the team before: Adrian Cann, Sita-Taty Matondo, Diaz Kambere, Stefan Leslie, Liam de Silva, Said Ali, Steve Frazao, Serge Djekanovic, Josue Mayard

In the two previous seasons, 2003-04 with Tony Fonseca as coach, the Whitecaps signed EIGHT new Canadian players: Justin Thompson, Kevin Harmse, Davide Xausa, Fuseini Dauda, Tino Cucca, Mark Gomes, Trevor Stiles, and Gordon Chin.

In the two seasons before that, it was TEN new Canadian players: Jim Larkin, Kevan Cameron, Simon Postma, Nico Craveiro, Andrew Veer, Mark Finan, Rob Hall, Lars Hirschfeld (on loan), Chris Handsor, and Steve London

morbital

03-27-2007, 04:21 AM

i could care less about whos on the field (gregor being the exception, hes a twat) as long as we're winning!

Calgary Boomer

03-27-2007, 10:29 AM

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

While I'll agree with Johnnie about the Whitecaps not being obligated to develop Canadian soccer players I'll disagree that these players are being signed because there are no better Canadians available. As Grizzly mentioned it is because the coach is an American and only knows/cares about the young American talent. Perhaps Lilley, who has MLS coaching aspirations, wants to develop lots of young American talent that will one day move to MLS with him.

So, lets say a Canadian Coach was hired two years ago, like Colin Miller (who applied). Would he have found Joey Gjertson, Steve Klein, Tony Donatelli, Dave Testo?

Would he have won a championship yet with Andrew Corazza and Mohammed Aziz? Doubt it.

Maybe the best prospect from these parts is Riley O'Neil who was drafted by Lilly...but declined because he wants to play overseas.

I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have.

And who cares if Lilly has MLS aspirations...so do the Whitecaps and if they ever go, they may have to fall under the same Canadian minimum restrictions as Toronto FC .

Richard

03-27-2007, 12:15 PM

"I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have."

Finally somebody has hit the nail on the head.

I am sure there are plenty of Canadians good enough to play for the Whitecaps in USL First Division, but they are occupied fulltime with other jobs that pay more and have better long term security and prospects. Otherwise they are plying their soccer trade somewhere else, probably for more money than the Whitecaps can or will pay as a USL D1 club. The club has no choice but to take players from wherever they can get them.

Blue and White Army

03-27-2007, 01:26 PM

If the CSA expects the Whitecaps to field lesser-quality Canadian players just to develop local lads for the men's national team, then the Whitecaps should expect to be financially compensated by the CSA for doing so.

Until that happens, the Whitecaps can do as they want - and currently, that's putting the best damn product possible onto the field.

Gordon

03-27-2007, 04:25 PM

quote:Originally posted by Richard

"I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have."

Finally somebody has hit the nail on the head.

I am sure there are plenty of Canadians good enough to play for the Whitecaps in USL First Division, but they are occupied fulltime with other jobs that pay more and have better long term security and prospects. Otherwise they are plying their soccer trade somewhere else, probably for more money than the Whitecaps can or will pay as a USL D1 club. The club has no choice but to take players from wherever they can get them.

The Whitecaps almost assuredly do not scout outside of BC, indeed, Gjertson was probably discovered playing an NAIA game against SFU. Other than that, It appears all the non-BC boys (Canucks and Americans) on the roster seem to come from other USL teams and are "discovered" that way. I'd venture that if the Caps' had the budget, they could find some talent in Alberta and other locales in Canada. But they probably don't and so their pool of Canadians is limited to BC.

But again, it is the Whitecaps' job to win.

Gian-Luca

03-27-2007, 04:49 PM

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have.

That's the wrong question to ask. When our players go abroad on trial or in youth academies for foreign clubs, the consensus is that in order to be signed ahead of domestic players that our Canadian boys have to be better than the domestic players that are available.

Are we now saying that for Canadian clubs, that the same things applies, that Canadian players once again have to be better than foreign players, even though we are the domestic players in this case? Surely it should be up to the foreign players here to prove they are better than the Canadian ones for Canadian teams, not the other way round.

As for available Canadian talent that is equal or better that some of what the Whitecaps have signed, how about the better ex-Lynx players who are too good for the PDL like Jamie Dodds, Robbie Aristodemo or Edgar Bartolomeu? Maybe they've made inquiries here, I don't know, and perhaps they will sign Robbie when his indoor season ends, but I've heard Jamie Dodds has signed to play for a CPSL team (or whatever the league is now called), which seems a damn shame when he could be playing in the USL Division 1.

And yes, technically speaking the Whitecaps are under no obligation to develop Canadian players.....but that doesn't stop the likes of Bob Lenarduzzi talking about how the Whitecaps are eager to develop Canadian talent & provide for a professional environment for Canadian players during Canada vs. Scotland broadcast. So whether they are under an obligation to do so is actually beside the point - the fact is that they claim to want to do so, and questioning whether they are succeeding in their own stated aims is completely legitimate.

Grizzly

03-27-2007, 05:44 PM

Finally the voice of reason from GL. It is disturbing to see how many fans, particularly of the Caps seem only concerned about whether they are winning or not and don't care if Canadians are playing. News Flash: the USL is a league in which the playing level is 3rd or 4th division European and with no chance of promotion. Winning is not unimportant but while I understand teams in top level leagues importing foreigners to win at all cost I don't understand this in lower level leagues. THE USL IS CRAP FOOTBALL! The USL title is not meaningless but if that is the raison d'etre of these clubs I think they have their priorities wrong. Nor are the Impact and Caps winning the title frequently enough to justify their policies. Even from a revenue standpoint they could make as much money developing young players.

The Caps may not receive as much government funds as the Impact but I am sure the amount they do receive is not as insignificant as some posters here are implying. I think the teams do have a duty to give something back to the communities they are based in. Supporting a soccer team is not the same thing as buying stocks on the stock market. I as a fan need to have something to win my loyalty to the team. If a team that operates as a business in a similar fashion to MacDonald's or ESSO is good enough for some here so be it, for me it is not good enough especially if I have to buy a poor product, in this case, watch bad soccer. And the soccer is bad whether played by the foreigners or not, each team only has two or three foreigner that I could say really raise the level of play and it is not these foreigners that I am complaining about.

I am willing to watch bad soccer if there is something to draw me in. The team I support in Germany is in the 4th division but is well supported and the fans and atmosphere are better than the 1st BL so that is why I support them despite the poor playing level. Despite the efforts of the Ultras and Southsiders the atmosphere at Impact and Caps games is terrible. The level of play is poor and not only that both teams are among the most boring teams to watch in the USL, ie. Lilleyball and its derivative DeSantisball. I need something to attract me to watch this level of soccer, ie. the interest of watching developing Canadian players. If I am going to watch crap soccer I want to see it played by young Canadians not by 28 year old Argentinians and Americans. If the Canadians on the Impact and Caps were getting a chance to play instead of sitting on the bench I would feel differently. When they do get on I rarely see a difference in skill level between them and the mediocre foreigners they are subbing in for. Both the Impact and Caps have a dismal record in developing young Canadians. In fact most of the Canadians currently playing on the two teams are older and stem from the time when they were forced to play more Canadians.

I don't buy the argument that the Caps don't have enough money to find/play Canadian talent. In fact, the problem is that the Caps and Impact have too much money. They are the only teams in the league that can afford to bring in foreign players from places like Argentina and England. There are only a couple of US teams who have budgets anything near the Impact and Caps. In principle, I don't have a problem with the removal of the foreigner limit. The problem is that the US based clubs don't have the money to scout and attract foreign players so the result is that the Canadian clubs bring in foreigners and Canadians are not conversly being signed by American clubs. The Impact and Caps instead of taking the time to develop our own talent are taking the easy way by signing players developed on other teams. Should a yearly scouting trip to Argentina really be a part of the non-profit Impact's mandate? I am sure it easy for Lilley with his American contacts to find talented American college players but shouldn't part of a coach in Canada's job be scouting in this country as well? To make matters worse both Lenarduzzi and Saputo spout off about developing Canadians but so far it is mostly talk.

It is also interesting to see that the one team that did develop the most Canadians was the Lynx. I often enjoyed watching the Lynx more than the Impact or Caps for that reason because I was more interested in their players. The Lynx lack of success was not due to having Canadian players but the instability of the organization which lead to them fielding completely different teams at the start of each season. In fact, for the last few seasons the Lynx in the 2nd half of the season when the roster had stabilized and the players knew each other were often top teams that could have competed for the title had they not lost so many games earlier in the year when the players changed regularly and didn't know each other. The times I watched the Lynx in Montreal late in the year they were among the very best teams in playing level that the Impact faced.

At the moment the team I am most interest in is TFC because I am more interested in their players and their playing level. Even their development roster is more interesting to me than the Impact or Caps rosters. Whether they are doing this because of league requirements or out of team philosophy is immaterial, the fact is that something is working better at the club/league level. I also hope the Canadian content rules for TFC will increase in coming years. Since the Caps and Impact have not shown any impetetus to play Canadians of their own free will maybe the CSA should lobby the USL to reintroduce the Canadian content rules because the present situation is not working. Whether I support the Impact this year will probably have a lot to do with the playing time of Di Ioia who is a very talented young Canadian. If we have a repeat of the Hainault situation where he subs on irregularly, looks like their best defender but his performance doesn't win him any more playing time, I will probably pass on the Impact this year. I have better things to do than watch a few 30 year old Canadians playing defensive 3rd/4th division soccer with a bunch of mediocre Americans and South Americans. If Di Ioia and some of the other younger Canadians are getting some time I will be inspired to go to the games. Maybe the majority of Impact fans in attendance on free and $5/10 tickets don't have the same attitude but they will have lost at least one hardcore fan of which they have far too few.

Richard

03-27-2007, 06:19 PM

Whatever gets you rocks off. Personally I prefer my team to be a winning one rather than one driven by parochial nationalism. No matter what you believe the real level of USL D1 is by international standards, the Whitecaps FC is a professional sports entertainment business and unlike the Impact, is privately owned and funded. They can chose whomever they wish to play on the team. Would you expect the EPL, Bundesliga and all the other European leagues/clubs to employ only domestic players? If the fans stop buying tickets then the Whitecaps may well rethink their player policies. I sugggest if that happened though, the reason would be a losing team, not the nationality of the players.

Cheeta

03-27-2007, 07:15 PM

quote:Originally posted by morbital

i could care less about whos on the field (gregor being the exception, hes a twat) as long as we're winning!

Yeah, well... Good luck with that! (I'll just get on with ordering my Impact shirt this weekend some time).

Peace, love and understanding lads. See you all at Commonwealth this summer where we can have a good, loud, drunken face-to-face over it all ;).

Jeffery S.

03-27-2007, 07:38 PM

Have to agree with Gianluca and Grizzly on this.

I find it much more interesting to watch young talent grow and if it is local or Canadian even better. I don't mind those odd Americans who show committment and develop well, but most of them don't know or care where they are, they have no committment to the club or the place or even care about the history, which in the case of the Whitecaps is rather sad (especially when so much of its history in the form of the Lenarduzzi boys is still around).

Like Grizzly I also watch lower division, not as much as I used to for family reasons, but if I could I would watch a third or fourth tier game every weekend. I love it, and especially if it is my neighbourhood team or the youth teams of Barça or Espanyol. I am proud to have seen guys like Arteta or Iniesta or players like Depor defender Lopo (Espanyol system) when they were teens, that is a kick for me. And I am proud that someone believed in their talent and took a risk to develop it instead of only thinking about results.

The whole winning is everything thing does not grab me sentimentally. I have said before that when Barça won two leagues in a row under Van Gaal we did not celebrate them with the same enthusiasm here because the team was all Dutch, and the coach was a Dutch azzhole. And it does make a difference for us to have four or five guys from the youth program on the field (five started vs. Liverpool at Anfield). I also think that having those guys means you have players with a huge emotional bond with the team, they hate losing and especially to certain rivals. Often you see the international stars walk off after losing rather nonchalant, they don't like it as they are competitive and talented, but they don't have that rage and embarrassment that local kids show.

One of the worst marks against Whitecaps is that so few players have gone on from the club to greater things in recent years. From any nationality. I think it could be a problem with a lack of FIFA agents in BC, so that link is weak, I admit it. But nothing makes me prouder to be able to say this or that kid in Bundesliga 2 or the Championship was developed by the Caps. And when have I been able to say that lately?

Grizzly

03-27-2007, 08:42 PM

Wanting your country to develop talented soccer players is not parochial nationalism, Richard. If winning minor league titles is more important to you than the development of Canadian players I don't think you are much of a fan of Canadian soccer. Basically what I am hearing from several posters is that they are willing to support a team that has a philosophy of placing winning and making a profit as the top priorities as long as it is located in their hometown. If that is enough for you guys to support a team then so be it but it is not enough for me. I like Jefferey don't even like this attitude at the top levels of the sport though at least I can somewhat understand it there. I am certainly not going to accept it from teams playing boring, poor level minor league soccer.

For those looking to blame the CSA and provincial organizations about the so-called lack of Canadian USL level players (a point I dispute there is no lack of players there is a lack of searching for them) while there may be some merit to that, don't forget that the USL teams are an important cog in the whole development process and share in the blame. I don't see that the talent is not being produced at the provincial level, what I see is there are not professional clubs willing to take the talent once it is ready to graduate to the next level. We only have three professional clubs in Canada (a situation both the Impact and Caps have contributed greatly to) and two of those clubs don't appear to be very interested in developing young Canadian talent. I am getting sick of reading week in and week out how the Impact and Caps are signing yet another couple of foreigners especially when as GL mentioned there are a number of out of work Lynx players who would be decent choices. If this year at Impact games I am going to be watching Gervais and Leduc and a bunch of foreigners than I will withdraw my support from the Impact. There is nothing to attract me, the soccer is poor and I am not watching Canadians. My time would be better spent watching DeGuzman and McKenna play on tv as well as watching TFC. I live in Montreal but if the Impact are not representing Montreal, Quebec or Canada than I will watch a team in another city or another country.

Krammerhead

03-27-2007, 08:49 PM

quote:So, lets say a Canadian Coach was hired two years ago, like Colin Miller (who applied). Would he have found Joey Gjertson, Steve Klein, Tony Donatelli, Dave Testo?

Gjertson perhaps. The others? Probably not. I believe the others had relationships with Lilley, and are the reason they joined the squad.

quote:Would he have won a championship yet with Andrew Corazza and Mohammed Aziz? Doubt it.

Probably not. But last years championship really doesn't mean anything to me. In fact I only attended one game last season (vs Montreal-it sent me to sleep) and I didn't even watch the championship game. Whitecaps spent a lot of money and bought a championship-big deal. I had more fun at games in the days when they fielded what we used to call an all star VMSL side. Just my opinion, and one that won't change.

quote:I'd like to know what AVAILABLE Canadian talent is currently better than what the Whitecaps already have

I don't know. Do the Caps even have enough signed players yet? If they do have a great load of talent already signed then why sign American USL-2 players to sit on the bench when they can sign some Canadian local to do the same thing?

quote:
And who cares if Lilly has MLS aspirations...so do the Whitecaps and if they ever go, they may have to fall under the same Canadian minimum restrictions as Toronto FC .

So? Different leagues, apples and oranges. We are talking about USL-1 here.

Krammerhead

03-27-2007, 09:01 PM

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If the fans stop buying tickets then the Whitecaps may well rethink their player policies. I sugggest if that happened though, the reason would be a losing team, not the nationality of the players.

Whitecaps/86ers attendance since being founded has been nearly the same, year after year, regardless of winning, losing or mediocre seasons.

Calgary Boomer

03-27-2007, 10:34 PM

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If the fans stop buying tickets then the Whitecaps may well rethink their player policies. I sugggest if that happened though, the reason would be a losing team, not the nationality of the players.

Whitecaps/86ers attendance since being founded has been nearly the same, year after year, regardless of winning, losing or mediocre seasons.

Because they play in a ****ty amatuer facility that only has so much room.

Calgary Boomer

03-27-2007, 10:42 PM

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If winning minor league titles is more important to you than the development of Canadian players I don't think you are much of a fan of Canadian soccer. Basically what I am hearing from several posters is that they are willing to support a team that has a philosophy of placing winning and making a profit as the top priorities as long as it is located in their hometown.

What a complete and utter load of garbage. Without profit, WE DON'T HAVE A TEAM! In fact, THERE IS NO PROFIT, and we're lucky to have a team in Vancouver! If you don't have a team in Vancouver, how the hell are you supposed to play Canadian talent???

To suggest you're not a fan of Canadian Soccer because your team is successful and trying to find the BEST PLAYERS POSSIBLE is so incredibly ignorant, because in the long run, just having teams playing at a high standard in this country will ENCOURAGE Canadian players to have something to aim for.

I wonder if this bogus and never ending argument is more anti-American sentiment than anything else...

Calgary Boomer

03-27-2007, 10:46 PM

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

Have to agree with Gianluca and Grizzly on this.

I find it much more interesting to watch young talent grow and if it is local or Canadian even better. I don't mind those odd Americans who show committment and develop well, but most of them don't know or care where they are, they have no committment to the club or the place or even care about the history, which in the case of the Whitecaps is rather sad (especially when so much of its history in the form of the Lenarduzzi boys is still around).

Then you obviously have a short memory, because in the NASL days, Canadian players represented 5% of the entire roster. The rest of them COULD CARE LESS about what city they lived in, as long as they collected a GIANT paycheque.

Calgary Boomer

03-27-2007, 10:49 PM

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

quote:So, lets say a Canadian Coach was hired two years ago, like Colin Miller (who applied). Would he have found Joey Gjertson, Steve Klein, Tony Donatelli, Dave Testo?

Gjertson perhaps. The others? Probably not. I believe the others had relationships with Lilley, and are the reason they joined the squad.

The only player that had a previous relationship with Lilly was Steve Klein. Testo was picked up as a free agent from Columbus, Donatelli was spotted at an MLS combine, and Gjertson was an invite who even the Sounders passed over.

Grizzly

03-27-2007, 11:06 PM

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

If winning minor league titles is more important to you than the development of Canadian players I don't think you are much of a fan of Canadian soccer. Basically what I am hearing from several posters is that they are willing to support a team that has a philosophy of placing winning and making a profit as the top priorities as long as it is located in their hometown.

What a complete and utter load of garbage. Without profit, WE DON'T HAVE A TEAM! In fact, THERE IS NO PROFIT, and we're lucky to have a team in Vancouver! If you don't have a team in Vancouver, how the hell are you supposed to play Canadian talent???

To suggest you're not a fan of Canadian Soccer because your team is successful and trying to find the BEST PLAYERS POSSIBLE is so incredibly ignorant, because in the long run, just having teams playing at a high standard in this country will ENCOURAGE Canadian players to have something to aim for.

I wonder if this bogus and never ending argument is more anti-American sentiment than anything else...

No, the complete, utter load of garbage is the inaccurate information you have just posted. I never stated the teams shouldn't make a profit only that it should not be the only purpose of the team so maybe you should read my posts and not put words in my mouth. If you enjoy watching profit making why don't you visit the stock exchange. Most of these foreign players are in fact more expensive than their Canadian counterparts. What exactly is the point of having teams in Canada if they are not playing Canadian players and yes 3 or 4 is not an adequate number of Canadians? My opinion has nothing to do with anti-Americanism so once again stop trying to put words in my mouth and try to at least respond to my opinions as they are written. I have nothing against a couple of Americans or other foreigners playing on a team if they are top performers. I don't think both Canadian teams should have 5 Americans each. There are American USL teams for the American players to develop on, the Canadians teams should be developing Canadian players.

Krammerhead

03-27-2007, 11:17 PM

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

quote:Originally posted by Richard

If the fans stop buying tickets then the Whitecaps may well rethink their player policies. I sugggest if that happened though, the reason would be a losing team, not the nationality of the players.

Whitecaps/86ers attendance since being founded has been nearly the same, year after year, regardless of winning, losing or mediocre seasons.

Because they play in a ****ty amatuer facility that only has so much room.

Yes, how nice that they continually reduce the capacity of the stadium. It used to be around 7,199 as late as 2003 and in the CSL days they'd fit even more than that in there. Year by year since 1987 crowds have always averaged around 2-3K less than capacity. They have since reduced capacity of the stadium making the empty seats fewer. That being said it still doesn't change my what I said. Win, lose, or play dreadfully boring soccer the attendance really doesn't reflect what type of season the Whitecaps are having. Seasons dogged by poor weather on the other hand.....

Grizzly

03-27-2007, 11:35 PM

For those advocating the importance of winning the championship, how many of the fans actually care? I was there when Vancouver beat Montreal in the semi-final and while I am sure most would have preferred Montreal win noone (except for Daniel ;)) really cared that much that they lost. The reaction wasn't even comparable to the feeling in Montreal when the Habs lose an unimportant regular season game. In fact what seems to interest the majority of fans the most is whether they can get a shirt from the mascot firing then into the crowd. From what I have heard from Vancouverites, the atmosphere at Caps games is even more apathetic than the one in Montreal. While I don't doubt that attendance would go down if the team lost every week as long as it is half decent I think the attendance stays about the same. So many of the Impact's tickets are free giveaways or group purchases anyway. The Caps have a very small stadium so it is not like winning the Championship allows them to sell thousands of more tickets. How much profit does winning the USL championship actually bring? I doubt it is very significant revenue wise, more bragging rights than anything else.

Johnnie Monster

03-27-2007, 11:45 PM

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I am sure if an accountant were to look at the financial records of the Caps he could find a lot of government revenue.

I am almost certain the Caps receive nothing in the way of government support other than a $2 share of every $8 Swangard parking ticket sold by the city of Burnaby.

Gordon

03-27-2007, 11:48 PM

I am amused...TFCs development players more interesting that Vancouvers? Aside from the fortutitous acquisition of Lombardo, I'd take Cann, Matondo and Vancouver's 2 U-20s over any combination of TFC Development players anyone can derive. I have found TFC's senior roster disappointing - none of the players selected have much room for improvement and because TFC managed to negotiate themselves "extra" American's, they are unlikely to start more than 4 Canadians in any game. I think, when the 2007 MLS salaries come out, we will see that the marquee salaries have not gone to the Canadian players, all of whom would be eminently afordable, and instead are going to American's on the fringe fo the National team. Lovely, just greating lovely...

Of the Canadians on their (TFC) development roster, only, A.J. Gray and possibly Gonsalves have much in the way of upside, I don't think D'Agostino nor Elliot have a lot of upside either frankly so its pretty much a wash between the clubs. Vancouver does a better job that Toronto right now in developing young Canadian talent (although both pursue cheap local talent rather than gather the best canadian talent)...9 BC players (and 12 Canadians) on the senior squad, a full reserve team (all local players). Perhaps someday Toronto will reach Vancouver's standard, its to be expected that a young club owned by a company with zero interest in Canadian soccer would trail a more established side.

Grizzly

03-27-2007, 11:55 PM

quote:Originally posted by Johnnie Monster

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I am sure if an accountant were to look at the financial records of the Caps he could find a lot of government revenue.

I am almost certain the Caps receive nothing in the way of government support other than a $2 share of every $8 Swangard parking ticket sold by the city of Burnaby.

Sports teams are famous for getting lots of government revenue whether announced or not. For one thing, what about the tax write-off businesses get when they buy tickets to games which is 50%, basically a government subsidy for rich people to watch sporting events which benefits all teams. I think people are assuming because the owner is extremely rich that the team is not using the myriad of tax and other government revenue streams available to businesses and sports franchises. I stand by my statement that I think an accountant with access to their books could find a lot of government money in Whitecap operations. I am not saying that is wrong either, the Caps should take advantage of whatever tax credits and government funds they can get. Nor am I denigrating the amount of money that Kerfoot is putting in to the Caps. I am only saying that the argument that the Caps are wholly private funded and don't have to give anything back to the community does not hold water.

Grizzly

03-28-2007, 12:25 AM

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

I am amused...TFCs development players more interesting that Vancouvers? Aside from the fortutitous acquisition of Lombardo, I'd take Cann, Matondo and Vancouver's 2 U-20s over any combination of TFC Development players anyone can derive. I have found TFC's senior roster disappointing - none of the players selected have much room for improvement and because TFC managed to negotiate themselves "extra" American's, they are unlikely to start more than 4 Canadians in any game. I think, when the 2007 MLS salaries come out, we will see that the marquee salaries have not gone to the Canadian players, all of whom would be eminently afordable, and instead are going to American's on the fringe fo the National team. Lovely, just greating lovely...

Of the Canadians on their (TFC) development roster, only, A.J. Gray and possibly Gonsalves have much in the way of upside, I don't think D'Agostino nor Elliot have a lot of upside either frankly so its pretty much a wash between the clubs. Vancouver does a better job that Toronto right now in developing young Canadian talent (although both pursue cheap local talent rather than gather the best canadian talent)...9 BC players (and 12 Canadians) on the senior squad, a full reserve team (all local players). Perhaps someday Toronto will reach Vancouver's standard, its to be expected that a young club owned by a company with zero interest in Canadian soccer would trail a more established side.

Cann is no longer a young player and is in fact older than both Braz and Pozniak. I was quite disappointed in how much playing time Matondo received last year. While none will develop into superstar, I think all of Braz, Sutton, Pozniak and Reda will benefit from playing at a higher level than they were recently (to be fair two of these are former Impact players but they were stagnating at USL level). At the very least this will improve the quality of our national team depth. I hope Lombardo will develop into a top player with TFC. There is also one more Canadian signing to come. Guzman, Hemming, Gray, Assante are all interesting prospects. Don't know much about Checinski. Not sure what the status is of JP Piques, Joey Melo or Gabe Gala is but at least they were given a tryout. Whether or not they sign I do see TFC giving tryouts to various Canadian guys trying to get their careers going such as Canizales and Budalic something I don't see from our USL teams.

I will admit I am cutting TFC some slack because they are a first year team playing at a higher level. I hope to see Canadian content increase in the future and will call them on it if it doesn't. We also do not know how effective their youth program will be but it couldn't be less productive than the recent accomplishments of those of the USL teams. I feel even in their first year they have not only equalled but surpassed the sorry efforts of the Caps and Impact but yes they should do more in the years to come. In the end the issue of this thread is not what TFC is doing but why the Caps and Impact are doing so little to develop Canadian talent.

Richard

03-28-2007, 01:31 AM

The Whitecaps easily rolled over the Fraser Valley Soccer League Allstars 7-1 on Tuesday night at Newton Athletic Park in Surrey, BC.

A quick check of the Whitecaps training camp roster published at the game shows a total of 32 players, 18 of whom are Canadian, 9 are American and the balance from countries that include England, Czech Republic, Netherlands and Costa Rica. I certainly do not see a predominant American presence.

Grizzly

03-28-2007, 02:07 AM

Nearly one third of the training camp roster is American and you do not see a predominant American presence? Only barely over half of the players are Canadian and there is a huge number of foreigners. Might not be a huge number for an EPL team but it is huge for a lower division low level team in any country. Especially in a country of 32 million with only 3 professional soccer teams. What percentage of Canadians will be starters for the Caps compared with those sitting on the bench? How many of the Canadians getting playing time will be promising youngsters as opposed to late 20's to 30's veterans? I would cut the Caps some slack if some of the Canadian depth and youth players were graduating to regular players but it is not happening.

AlanDouglas

03-28-2007, 03:04 AM

As somebody who has covered Whitecaps/86ers training camps for over a decade, I can tell you that the distribution of Canadian and foreign talent at this camp is not much different now than in years past (though we are seeing more Americans, and fewer from overseas). What is different now is that players are having to compete based purely on merit, whereas before, local players had a clear advantage due to cost considerations (primarily the cost of accomodation). The non-Canadian players are also of a much higher calibre than I've seen at previous camps. Lilley knows his stuff.

So yes, there are now fewer Canadian fringe players being kept on the roster. But as I pointed out above, the number of Canadian prospect who are trying out and being signed is the same as it always has been. The difference is that the Canadian players (including the ones closest to National Team calibre), are being pushed harder than ever to keep their place on the team and/or starting eleven. Those who fail to make the grade are being weeded out. But the increased competition is making better players of those who remain. And isn't that the whole idea?

Jeffery S.

03-28-2007, 03:40 AM

quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas

As somebody who has covered Whitecaps/86ers training camps for over a decade, I can tell you that the distribution of Canadian and foreign talent at this camp is not much different now than in years past (though we are seeing more Americans, and fewer from overseas). What is different now is that players are having to compete based purely on merit, whereas before, local players had a clear advantage due to cost considerations (primarily the cost of accomodation). The non-Canadian players are also of a much higher calibre than I've seen at previous camps. Lilley knows his stuff.

So yes, there are now fewer Canadian fringe players being kept on the roster. But as I pointed out above, the number of Canadian prospect who are trying out and being signed is the same as it always has been. The difference is that the Canadian players (including the ones closest to National Team calibre), are being pushed harder than ever to keep their place on the team and/or starting eleven. Those who fail to make the grade are being weeded out. But the increased competition is making better players of those who remain. And isn't that the whole idea?

Alan, could you name for us one or three Canadian players developed by the Caps, meaning given increasingly more playing time over a few seasons, who are now playing at a higher level? Right now I can't think of any, unless Harmse, supposedly signing for Galaxy, can be called a Caps development (which I don't think he is).

The Whitecaps, in spite of the absurd illusions of Lenarduzzi which I think he has conned Kerfoot into believing, are not a quality pro team in international terms, and certainly don't have the money you would find even in the 2nd tier of leagues in Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Portugal. Nor do they offer their players the opportuntity to go on to something better, to improve their careers. For most it is the be all and end all, which is to say the end of the professional road. And that is not good enough.

If the Caps were a great feeder team for young talent going to pro careers in Europe then we could be talking about something to be proud about. I am not asking for another Beardsley, but something of the sort would not be so outlandish. Toronto teams have produced quite a few solid pros now in top flight teams in Europe. Now that is a legacy to be proud of.

Calgary Boomer

03-28-2007, 07:21 AM

quote:[i]Originally posted by Jeffrey S

quote:
Alan, could you name for us one or three Canadian players developed by the Caps, meaning given increasingly more playing time over a few seasons, who are now playing at a higher level? Right now I can't think of any, unless Harmse, supposedly signing for Galaxy, can be called a Caps development (which I don't think he is).

The Whitecaps, in spite of the absurd illusions of Lenarduzzi which I think he has conned Kerfoot into believing, are not a quality pro team in international terms, and certainly don't have the money you would find even in the 2nd tier of leagues in Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Portugal. Nor do they offer their players the opportuntity to go on to something better, to improve their careers. For most it is the be all and end all, which is to say the end of the professional road. And that is not good enough.

If the Caps were a great feeder team for young talent going to pro careers in Europe then we could be talking about something to be proud about. I am not asking for another Beardsley, but something of the sort would not be so outlandish. Toronto teams have produced quite a few solid pros now in top flight teams in Europe. Now that is a legacy to be proud of.

Come on! The Whitecaps organization was only saved from extinction 5 years ago! The 86ers and pre-Kerfoot Whitecaps barely had enough money to pay the roster they coddled together from the local leagues. How are they supposed to shell out for the development of talent?

And in case you haven't noticed, the Whitecaps are trying to build a youth program. They have 14 teams in their Acadmey, which is 14 more than Montreal and Toronto FC. Whether it will yeild a player for the first squad or for a European team is just a matter of time.

I can't believe people on this board. You've got a guy investing a boatload of cash to try and make the Whitecaps one of the best soccer clubs on the continent, and yet people are complaining because they aren't fielding an inferior lineup made up of metro players.

Whitecaps 7 Fraser Valley all-stars 1.

Free kick

03-28-2007, 08:39 AM

quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas

So yes, there are now fewer Canadian fringe players being kept on the roster. But as I pointed out above, the number of Canadian prospect who are trying out and being signed is the same as it always has been. The difference is that the Canadian players (including the ones closest to National Team calibre), are being pushed harder than ever to keep their place on the team and/or starting eleven. Those who fail to make the grade are being weeded out. But the increased competition is making better players of those who remain. And isn't that the whole idea?

Completely agree. Ultimately that will be a good thing for national programs.

Gian-Luca

03-28-2007, 08:52 AM

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Of the Canadians on their (TFC) development roster, only, A.J. Gray and possibly Gonsalves have much in the way of upside, I don't think D'Agostino nor Elliot have a lot of upside either frankly so its pretty much a wash between the clubs.

Don't you think it's a little bit premature, to say the least, to be writing off the careers of Stephen Lumley, Gabe Gala, Richard Asante, David Guzman and Joey Melo?

Maybe not all of them will make it, maybe none of them will, we don't know. Young players, U20 players especially shouldn't be written off at this stage. A lesson to be learned from the comments of Bob Lenarduzzi, who boldy proclaimed when Rob Friend was a member of the U20 team that it would be difficult to see him ever playing for the National team, while he said that Belotte he could easily see playing for the National team & advised Holger to take him to the Copa America (before we had to pull out). Look where those two players are now......

Free kick

03-28-2007, 09:26 AM

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

Of the Canadians on their (TFC) development roster, only, A.J. Gray and possibly Gonsalves have much in the way of upside, I don't think D'Agostino nor Elliot have a lot of upside either frankly so its pretty much a wash between the clubs.

I think that that you have it wrong a bit. Gonzalves only gained recognition when his named surfaced here as draft pick for TFC. I dont think that anyone here had heard of him, much less seen him play. besides he was a relatively lower draft pick and latest we heard was that he was trying out for the Impact.

But I was fortunate enough to see Joey Melo play whom you ignored. And, he is very good! And, judging from the entourage at the time that I saw him on the U16 national team, I am far from the only one who rated him highly. He ranked up there along with kennedy Owasu-ansa and Nana attakoraa nd the players that everyone in the minor soccer circles recognized and followed closely. In Melo's case, even more so than Kennedy and Nana

Calgary Boomer

03-28-2007, 10:02 AM

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas

So yes, there are now fewer Canadian fringe players being kept on the roster. But as I pointed out above, the number of Canadian prospect who are trying out and being signed is the same as it always has been. The difference is that the Canadian players (including the ones closest to National Team calibre), are being pushed harder than ever to keep their place on the team and/or starting eleven. Those who fail to make the grade are being weeded out. But the increased competition is making better players of those who remain. And isn't that the whole idea?

Completely agree. Ultimately that will be a good thing for national programs.

And one of the great complaints of the pre-Kerfoot teams was that local players were never pushed to be better, and took their places on the squad for granted.

Grizzly

03-28-2007, 01:57 PM

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

quote:[i]Originally posted by Jeffrey S

quote:
Alan, could you name for us one or three Canadian players developed by the Caps, meaning given increasingly more playing time over a few seasons, who are now playing at a higher level? Right now I can't think of any, unless Harmse, supposedly signing for Galaxy, can be called a Caps development (which I don't think he is).

The Whitecaps, in spite of the absurd illusions of Lenarduzzi which I think he has conned Kerfoot into believing, are not a quality pro team in international terms, and certainly don't have the money you would find even in the 2nd tier of leagues in Scandinavia, Switzerland, Austria, Portugal. Nor do they offer their players the opportuntity to go on to something better, to improve their careers. For most it is the be all and end all, which is to say the end of the professional road. And that is not good enough.

If the Caps were a great feeder team for young talent going to pro careers in Europe then we could be talking about something to be proud about. I am not asking for another Beardsley, but something of the sort would not be so outlandish. Toronto teams have produced quite a few solid pros now in top flight teams in Europe. Now that is a legacy to be proud of.

Come on! The Whitecaps organization was only saved from extinction 5 years ago! The 86ers and pre-Kerfoot Whitecaps barely had enough money to pay the roster they coddled together from the local leagues. How are they supposed to shell out for the development of talent?

And in case you haven't noticed, the Whitecaps are trying to build a youth program. They have 14 teams in their Acadmey, which is 14 more than Montreal and Toronto FC. Whether it will yeild a player for the first squad or for a European team is just a matter of time.

I can't believe people on this board. You've got a guy investing a boatload of cash to try and make the Whitecaps one of the best soccer clubs on the continent, and yet people are complaining because they aren't fielding an inferior lineup made up of metro players.

Whitecaps 7 Fraser Valley all-stars 1.

Yes I am still waiting for the names of anyone developed by the Caps in the last decade. Alan is saying it is the same way they have been doing business for a long while and I wholly agree. It is the same lack of producing any Canadian talent. Like all of the USL clubs the Caps have had some financial difficulties but I don't think their budget was ever so poor as the Lynx and look who the Lynx produced. The Impact were even in worse shape than the Caps at one time and were also producing some Canadian talent until recently. And the Caps are located in the region that should be the hotbed for producing Canadian soccer talent due to climate. In fact in the good old days of the Caps it was the hotbed for producing Canadian talent. Now the Caps have a boatload of cash and they are still not investing in Canadian talent and are just using it to buy foreigners so they can win Championships by virtue of having a bigger budget than other USL teams and raiding them for their talent.

The Caps have not produced talent recently when they had a small budget and they have not produced since they have a big budget. Noone is criticizing Kerfoot for spending a lot of money on the team the question is is he getting his money's worth. Did he buy the team to win USL championships or does he want to do something for Canadian soccer? I will give him full credit that some of his other actions indicate he wants to do something to develop Canadian soccer. Unlike Saputo, Kerfoot is a hands off owner and trusts his management team and that is exactly where the problem lies. To see why the Caps are not developing talent and are not commited to Canadian soccer the way they should be we have to look no further than a Mr. Lenarduzzi.

Gordon

03-28-2007, 02:39 PM

quote:Originally posted by Gian-Luca

Don't you think it's a little bit premature, to say the least, to be writing off the careers of Stephen Lumley, Gabe Gala, Richard Asante, David Guzman and Joey Melo?

Well, I started off by looking at the second post of TFC Roster dance thread so Melo (who is too young to judge one way or another) and Gala were not part of the 28 "spots" although they appear in the list, largely struck out, of trialists. Feel free to exclude them from my commentary. As for Asante, Hemming, Guzman, well they are at the age that one can pretty safely forecast their futures. Sadly, by 21, if they haven't shown enough, they almost certainly never will. Equally, although Lumley is still younger, I do not see him figuring into even TFC's plans let alone Canada's. So I don't see that group as any more interesting, or with Greater potential than the Vancouver group, although, I must concede, I thought Cann 21 or 22 and not 27. Kind of foolish given he came out of NCAA and was drafted by Colorado a few years ago now.

youllneverwalkalone

03-28-2007, 03:03 PM

Lumley looks pretty good on the ball to me. Random point, but it was noted above.

I feel for both sides here. I think we need to wait and see what comes of the academy. I fully agree that going to the Whitecaps is about the atmosphere and has little to do with results or the calibre of play. On the other hand, the club isn't capable of fielding a competitive side that was developed in house. Hopefully the legacy of this era will be a higher standard by which the young players coming through the academy will be judged.

ps. As an accountant, who needs to get back to work, I'll briefly say that the Grizz standard of "public" assistance would be difficult for any "private" business to overcome. I gladly take my basic personal credit and RRSP deduction, but I certainly would be offended if you claimed I was receiving goverment assistance. Especially at this time of year. [:p] However, the Caps do likely present certain tax planning opportunities to Kerfoot personally -although I'm convinced that it is ulitmately the Vancouver/BC soccer community who benefit most from his many initiatives.

Gordon

03-28-2007, 06:18 PM

quote:Originally posted by Free kick

I think that that you have it wrong a bit. Gonzalves only gained recognition when his named surfaced here as draft pick for TFC. I dont think that anyone here had heard of him, much less seen him play. besides he was a relatively lower draft pick and latest we heard was that he was trying out for the Impact.

But I was fortunate enough to see Joey Melo play whom you ignored. And, he is very good! And, judging from the entourage at the time that I saw him on the U16 national team, I am far from the only one who rated him highly. He ranked up there along with kennedy Owasu-ansa and Nana attakoraa nd the players that everyone in the minor soccer circles recognized and followed closely. In Melo's case, even more so than Kennedy and Nana

First Tony, it has come clear to me that you and I watch soccer with a different eye, not better, just different. My focus is almost exclusively on Canadian soccer and improvement thereof. I follow "minor" leagues and teams with Canadians and when the Canucks leave, I pay no more attention. 5 years ago, the SPL was a biggie, now Norway. And so, sometime ago, there was a poster who kept an updated list of Canadians in NCAA so I most defintely heard of Gonsalves before he surfaced as a possible pick of TFC. I find him "possibly" interesting because I believe that scoring goals takes a certain 'royal jelly' that transcends simply ability - it is an awareness, a drive, a resourcefulness that not everyone has. Gonsalves scored a hatful of goals in college and that means something to me. I've never seen him play (hence the 'possibly interesting'), and maybe never will if he fades into obscurity, but the ability to score goals, a whatever level, makes a player interesting to me. Maybe they can't carry it forward as they go onto higheer levels, but believe me, no one ever found a scoring touch and the next higher level that did not exist previously.

I do not find sub 18 players to be interesting unless they are clearly playing above thier level. Success is far to random, and many look like workd beaters at 17 and over their head at 20 - see the aforementioned Wyn Belotte as an example. I think its great that Joey Melo gets a chance to train in a professional environement....its why I want more teams not less...and it will enhance, not detract from his chances of "making it" but he is at least a year or two away from being interesting to me.

I flatter perhaps, but I view myself as a pretty good judge of talent. I don't care a whole lot about athleticism, but rather whether a player has that something special that will enable success. Anticipation, understanding of the game, creativity and awareness in attack, the ability to make good decisions when 'normal' play breaks down, or the ability to put the ball in the net. If I see anyone one or more of of those present, then I see a future. A good athlete with run of the mill soccer IQ will not be a national team player. The ability to dribble without purpose, or a good first touch with no ideas on what to do with the second touch will not take one to the higher levels of football, and so, my "interest" in those players is limited. Aside from Lombardo, I can not see any significant differences in the 19-22 year old developmental players on either TFC or VWFC that would lead me to say that either was doing a better job, or had more interesting potential.

Joey Melo might turn out to be a star...at this point, he is too young to hold my interest. It is great that he gets a chance to train in aprofessional environment, it is great that MC2 has a professional opportunity in Canada, and it is great that 4-5 guys get a chance to play in a higher or equal level in Canada with TFC. But in terms of developing Canadian players, I see no real reason to prefer TFC over VWFC. Neither of them are doing an outstanding job, and frankly, I am not sure that it is their responsibility. But if it is, it is an equal responsibility and cutting one slack, while not the other is IMO unreasonable.

Gian-Luca

03-28-2007, 07:35 PM

quote:Originally posted by Gordon

As for Asante, Hemming, Guzman, well they are at the age that one can pretty safely forecast their futures. Sadly, by 21, if they haven't shown enough, they almost certainly never will. Equally, although Lumley is still younger, I do not see him figuring into even TFC's plans let alone Canada's.

After watching TFC's match against NYRB I might agree with you on Guzman, but definitely would disagree on Asante, who played a solid 90 minutes & helped to mark Claudio Reyna into relative ineffectiveness. He is quickly becoming, in my eyes, the pleasant Canadian surprise story of TFC & I expect to see him feature in a lot of games this year & in future years based on what I've seen so far.

But I don't want this to turn into a TFC players thread, this isn't even the right part of the forum for that. My point is simply that players can develop over time, particularly in their early 20's, and as such I tend to hesitate in writing people off (be it for TFC, the Whitecaps, Impact or the national team) so early on. I especially wouldn't want to do so for the sake of an internet debate on which professional club develops & plays the most Canadian players, since (as far as I am aware) there is no competition between the Canadian clubs to see who does it the most.

AlanDouglas

03-29-2007, 01:35 AM

No Canadian team currently has the infrastructure to be able to take sole credit for developing anyone. There is no Barcelona, Ajax, or Arsenal here with masses of well established youth teams and residency training programs. But that is what the Whitecaps are working towards, and they are now getting fairly close to that vision.

Fact is, signing a talented 19 or 20-year-old, giving him a place to play for a couple of years and then letting him on his way is a pretty sad excuse for "development", so let's not kid ourselves about the success of different teams in that regard. That a player leaves a club to play somewhere else could just as easily be an indication that they see no future staying where they are, that they aren't enjoying the experience, or that they aren't being challenged enough.

I agree that Vancouver players do tend to stay in Vancouver. Having lived here all my life, I can't say I fault them. It's a fabulous city. And the 86ers and Whitecaps have traditionally tried to make this a place that players wanted to play, with emphasis on building team spirit and an enjoyable playing environment.

With Kerfoot and now Lilley, the focus has shifted towards building a much more professional organization. Lilley takes a lot of flak here, but the changes he has made in terms of how the team views itself and the training regimen have been dramatic. He took a very hard line with the players, demanding total commitment and a tough training schedule that goes virtually year-round for the locals. Many players fell by the wayside, and Lilley was widely criticized on this board because of it, but my god what a difference it has made for those who hung in. Players here can see how much this organization has improved in the past few years, and are of the belief that it will continue to do so.

So if you want me to name the Whitecaps who are now playing at a higher level, I will tell you. It's all of them!

That's not what you meant though, I know. So here's a name: Jacob Lensky now at Feyenoord, formerly Celtic. Jacob was playing on 86ers and Whitecaps youth teams starting when he was ten. His father was one of the coaches. I remember Jacob well, back in 1999 playing two years up for the 86ers U-12s. Hell of a player.

Now I'm not going to claim that the Whitecaps "developed" Jacob Lensky. That was something that was done by a number of groups and coaches, and primarily his father. But the Whitecaps/86ers did their part, with what little resources they had at the time. Considering how much the youth system has improved since then, I'm really looking forward to see what the next nine years will produce.

nolando

03-29-2007, 04:25 AM

Wow...I've been off to a desrted island for the past few days (quite literally), and just wanted to point out that it has been ages since I have seen such a brilliant thread on our beloved site, both in content and courtesy, and involving so many old-school voyageurs heavyweights as well...wow...i hope somebody out there (Caps, Impact, TFC, CSA) is watching this stuff closely because I don't think Canada would be able to find a better open-house forum style of conversation anywhere quite as good as this. on you go, lads!!

Calgary Boomer

03-29-2007, 08:22 AM

Jeffery S.

03-29-2007, 10:51 AM

quote:Originally posted by AlanDouglas

No Canadian team currently has the infrastructure to be able to take sole credit for developing anyone. There is no Barcelona, Ajax, or Arsenal here with masses of well established youth teams and residency training programs. But that is what the Whitecaps are working towards, and they are now getting fairly close to that vision.

Fact is, signing a talented 19 or 20-year-old, giving him a place to play for a couple of years and then letting him on his way is a pretty sad excuse for "development", so let's not kid ourselves about the success of different teams in that regard. That a player leaves a club to play somewhere else could just as easily be an indication that they see no future staying where they are, that they aren't enjoying the experience, or that they aren't being challenged enough.

I agree that Vancouver players do tend to stay in Vancouver. Having lived here all my life, I can't say I fault them. It's a fabulous city. And the 86ers and Whitecaps have traditionally tried to make this a place that players wanted to play, with emphasis on building team spirit and an enjoyable playing environment.

With Kerfoot and now Lilley, the focus has shifted towards building a much more professional organization. Lilley takes a lot of flak here, but the changes he has made in terms of how the team views itself and the training regimen have been dramatic. He took a very hard line with the players, demanding total commitment and a tough training schedule that goes virtually year-round for the locals. Many players fell by the wayside, and Lilley was widely criticized on this board because of it, but my god what a difference it has made for those who hung in. Players here can see how much this organization has improved in the past few years, and are of the belief that it will continue to do so.

So if you want me to name the Whitecaps who are now playing at a higher level, I will tell you. It's all of them!

That's not what you meant though, I know. So here's a name: Jacob Lensky now at Feyenoord, formerly Celtic. Jacob was playing on 86ers and Whitecaps youth teams starting when he was ten. His father was one of the coaches. I remember Jacob well, back in 1999 playing two years up for the 86ers U-12s. Hell of a player.

Now I'm not going to claim that the Whitecaps "developed" Jacob Lensky. That was something that was done by a number of groups and coaches, and primarily his father. But the Whitecaps/86ers did their part, with what little resources they had at the time. Considering how much the youth system has improved since then, I'm really looking forward to see what the next nine years will produce.

Alan, noone can argue about consolidating the Caps organizational side, that is fine.

But the line "Fact is, signing a talented 19 or 20-year-old, giving him a place to play for a couple of years and then letting him on his way is a pretty sad excuse for "development", so let's not kid ourselves about the success of different teams in that regard", that is absolutely mind-boggling. Even with how you temper it just after, with basically correct comments about why players might leave a club. But I think that you are seriously distorting things with this comment.

First, that is not at all a poor excuse for development. Giving a young player playing time? That is the key to development, especially when he is alongside more experienced players in a competitive environment. The real distortion, however, is to talk about "letting him on his way": what is that? Releasing him if he is not good enough? I don't think you refer to that. I imagine you are referring to his moving on to improve his skills, his pay, his career, his opportunities. This is what the Lynx have done with a good dozen players. The Caps with hardly any. So I understand this is a poor excuse for development for those close to the Whitecaps, since Caps don't do it and other supposedly inferior clubs do, and that is why it is necessary to denigrate the standard world football model for developing youth.

The Whitecaps should be happy to move young players with talent on to bigger and better things. We were once happy to do so, recalling your Beardsleys of the world, one of our proudest legacies. Okay, it is a new club, new set-up, new conditions. But if it is true what you are saying about consolidating a serious organizational club structure, then developing for transfers out, for transfer payments, and to motivate guys to play in a way that is not cushy, to aspire to more through their play, would have to be part of the declared objective.

As you seem to say it is not, then that seems to me a sign that this talk about making things more professional in the club is rather contradictory.

I say, mandate Lilley to build the club with talent and an identity the fans can connect with, meaning: we are going to always be proud to have young Vancouver, BC and Canadian talent on this team, and we are going to be proud to see them move on to bigger and better things. Club philosophy, one you would share with literally hundreds of modest clubs in the world. Besides sharing in the possible revenue benefits for the transfers being paid.

Finally, referring to Lensky. He is not even committed to Canada, and if his dad coached for Caps but is encouraging his kid to try for the Czech Republic (probably over his ability but that remains to see), then I ask what kind of model is the Caps using in its development system when the best example you can come up with has gone through the Caps system with the goal of playing for another nation.

analyst

03-29-2007, 06:20 PM

Whats the fuss? Why develop young Canadians when you can sign superstar strikers like Joel Bailey, who is todays signing announcement.
In a few weeks I can watch Martin and Bailey scoring bundles of goals against good ALeague teams like Virginia Beach. What a good team. What a good league.

Calgary Boomer

03-30-2007, 12:18 AM

quote:Originally posted by analyst

Whats the fuss? Why develop young Canadians when you can sign superstar strikers like Joel Bailey, who is todays signing announcement.
In a few weeks I can watch Martin and Bailey scoring bundles of goals against good ALeague teams like Virginia Beach. What a good team. What a good league.

Well I guess the alternative is to field a team of any Canadians who aren't already playing in the MLS for Toronto, or in Division 9 of a Scandanavian league, so that you can finish out of the playoffs, and play before a half full stadium.

Smart idea when you're planning on building a 100 million dollar stadium and joining MLS.

Or how about this...what about NOT HAVING A TEAM IN VANCOUVER AT ALL!

Your logic is baffling, but you're not alone on this board.

Grizzly

03-30-2007, 02:26 AM

The Bailey signing is exactly the type of signing I am talking about. A 27 year old Trinidadian who is a very mediocre player who was never able to start or do anything of consequence for Montreal in 3 years. Are there really no Canadian strikers available who could match Bailey's scorching goal scoring pace of two goals a year? Will Bailey return to his top form of three years ago when he scored 4 goals? I am so happy they relaxed the USL foreigner rules so we can watch strikers from Trinidad who have scored 6 goals during their whole USL career. Enjoy your newest acquisition Caps fans.

Calgary Boomer

03-30-2007, 07:24 AM

And a better AVAILABLE Canadian alternative would be?

Where are these great Canadian strikers you speak of?

Gian-Luca

03-30-2007, 08:43 AM

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

And a better AVAILABLE Canadian alternative would be?

Once again....why are we asking for the Canadian players to be better than their foreign counterparts in order to be signed for Canadian clubs?

Oh, and what's Nik Budalic doing these days?

Calgary Boomer

03-30-2007, 10:09 AM

We're not asking them to be better than, we're just asking them to be as good as...and not planning on trying to play in Europe.

Remember, there are restrictions for Canadian Players in the University system, so where else do they come from?

Richard

03-30-2007, 11:37 AM

Name ANY Canadian striker good enough, available and willing to play for the Whitecaps in USL D1.

Gian-Luca

03-30-2007, 11:59 AM

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

We're not asking them to be better than, we're just asking them to be as good as...and not planning on trying to play in Europe.

It seemed to me that you did ask them to be "better" on two previous occasions in this thread. If that's not what you meant fair enough, but it is what you said.

Gian-Luca

03-30-2007, 12:01 PM

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Name ANY Canadian striker good enough, available and willing to play for the Whitecaps in USL D1.

I thought I already had suggested someone. The bar isn't exactly being set very high with Joel Bailey - from what I've seen I'd take Niki Budalic & some of the Canadian strikers (like Palleschi) trying out for the Impact over him. They are good enough & available, whether they are willing I don't know that any of us can speak to.

Ivan

03-30-2007, 01:18 PM

Damien Pottinger.

analyst

03-30-2007, 01:47 PM

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Name ANY Canadian striker good enough, available and willing to play for the Whitecaps in USL D1.

If Andrew Corazza could play 14 games, like Bailey did last year, then he would score at least 2 goals, which is what Bailey scored last year.
Other good goalscorers/attackers are Adrian Kekec and the Marcina brothers. They are equal to Bailey and probably Martin.

Richard

03-30-2007, 02:08 PM

But do these players meet all three criteria as well as being equal to or better than the American selections? Plus coaches must take into account player personalities and team chemistry. Remember, the club is seeking to field the best, most competitive team it can afford irrespective of what passport the players carry.

Grizzly

03-30-2007, 02:49 PM

quote:Originally posted by Calgary Boomer

And a better AVAILABLE Canadian alternative would be?

Where are these great Canadian strikers you speak of?

Why are you talking about great strikers? We are talking here about signing a guy who is a borderline USL player, in fact, someone who I would say is not good enough to play in the USL. Plus, he is 27 so he is not really a prospect either. He showed in three years that he was not good enough to play for the Impact so why are the Caps signing him? There have been several suggestions of Canadian players who are better than Bailey and out of contract. However, ultimately it is the job of the Caps and Impact to find good players not posters on a soccer forum. If they were adequately scouting Canadians they wouldn't be signing guys like Bailey. It is one thing to ask where they would find an available keeper as good as Caig but another to ask where can they find someone as good as Bailey. As GL said that is setting the bar very low. In addition to those mentioned by the others, there are probably several players in the CSL and PCSL who could play as well as Bailey. Hell you could probably even find guys in the Vancouver Senior Men's League who could score more than 2 goals in 14 games with the Impact. Incidentally, Bailey is one of the reasons the Caps won the title as he was one of the Impact's starting strikers in the semi-final game we lost because we couldn't score. DeSantis for some crazy, unknown reason decided to start Bailey instead of the one player, Salles, who could score. If the Caps were signing Salles I wouldn't be complaining because he is a good player but if they are going to sign players not good enough for the USL at least sign young Canadian players not good enough for the USL.

masster

03-30-2007, 04:08 PM

Both sides make some good points. As a Canadian soccer fan, I want to see as many Canadians on the Whitecaps as possible. Yet on the other hand, had Lilley not brought in Gjertsen, Testo and Donatelli over the last 2 years there is no way that the Caps win the Championship, thus losing all the extra media attention that goes along with it.

What I would like to see is for the Caps to try and bring in the best players possible, yet still being a viable option for guys like Tyler Rosenlund and Riley O'Neill to further develop. Rosenlund was bouncing around tryouts in Scandinavia and who knows how he will do in Sweden, while O'Neill is in 3rd division Germany and likely to be relegated. Wouldn't the Caps be a logical next step for these guys post NCAA?

Krammerhead

03-30-2007, 07:39 PM

quote:Originally posted by Richard

But do these players meet all three criteria as well as being equal to or better than the American selections? Plus coaches must take into account player personalities and team chemistry. Remember, the club is seeking to field the best, most competitive team it can afford irrespective of what passport the players carry.

How do the Whitecaps know ahead of time how the players personalities and chemistry are going to mesh?

Krammerhead

03-30-2007, 07:43 PM

quote:Yet on the other hand, had Lilley not brought in Gjertsen, Testo and Donatelli over the last 2 years there is no way that the Caps win the Championship, thus losing all the extra media attention that goes along with it.

What extra media attention was that? It carried all the extra media attention as a Vancouver Canadians baseball championship.

Richard

03-30-2007, 09:14 PM

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

quote:Originally posted by Richard

But do these players meet all three criteria as well as being equal to or better than the American selections? Plus coaches must take into account player personalities and team chemistry. Remember, the club is seeking to field the best, most competitive team it can afford irrespective of what passport the players carry.

How do the Whitecaps know ahead of time how the players personalities and chemistry are going to mesh?
Anybody who hires people that must work as a member of any team has to take this into account. Some people are good at such assessments, others not so good but it is very definitely an important factor when selecting players for team sports.

masster

03-30-2007, 09:20 PM

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

quote:Yet on the other hand, had Lilley not brought in Gjertsen, Testo and Donatelli over the last 2 years there is no way that the Caps win the Championship, thus losing all the extra media attention that goes along with it.

What extra media attention was that? It carried all the extra media attention as a Vancouver Canadians baseball championship.

It may have lasted for only a couple of days, but hi-lites were shown on Global, CTV, CBC, Sportsnet. Cameras were there at the airport for their return home plus three local radio stations as well. The victory was front page of the Province. I'm not saying the coverage was immense but it was definetly more than they would have gotten otherwise.

Calgary Boomer

03-31-2007, 11:00 AM

quote:Originally posted by analyst

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Name ANY Canadian striker good enough, available and willing to play for the Whitecaps in USL D1.

If Andrew Corazza could play 14 games, like Bailey did last year, then he would score at least 2 goals, which is what Bailey scored last year.
Other good goalscorers/attackers are Adrian Kekec and the Marcina brothers. They are equal to Bailey and probably Martin.

Andrew Corazza couldn't even score in the pre-season against the University teams. He was given EVERY opportunity to make the team. The Club was DYING for him to be the next local phenom like he was at SFU. But he wasn't good enough, and he didn't want to play for the reserves. I watched every pre-season game last year, and he was virtually invisible.

As for Bailey...look at his minutes. He was used largely as a sub, and that team couldn't score at a brothel. On this team, he'll get more than 2 goals. Would I rather have Corazza on the team scoring at will? OF COURSE! But he wasn't any better than what they had, and decided to try Europe.

AlanDouglas

03-31-2007, 02:22 PM

I like Corazza, and wish things had worked out better, but after playing on various 86ers/Whitecaps reserve teams since he was 15, he was a given a fair chance to make the team last year, but didn't make the grade. Instead it was another Canadian, Matondo, who lit up the pre-season scoring chart, and took that roster spot. And for all the people who sing Corazza's praises as a goal scorer (including Alan Errington who I respect greatly), he hasn't exactly made an impact on the national youth teams either.

As for Adrian Kekec - he has been in training camp and he played in the FVSL game (although his name was inadvertently omitted from the game-day roster handout). He wore 28 for those who were at the game, though I can't say I remember him. There were roster cuts yesterday, so I'll see today if he is still in camp.

And as for Bailey, let's try to put this in perspective. Two of the three Whitecaps top strikers - Jordan and Gjertsen - are currently injured (Jordan is still wearing a cast), and the Whitecaps have already released two import strikers who failed to make an impact last season, Woolfolk and Brooks. So I don't think signing Bailey is an omen of the apocalypse. No, his scoring record hasn't been spectacular, but then neither was Matondo's.

See, this is how professional soccer works (and not just USL, but all levels). You bring players in who you think might help, you see if they work out, and you try to keep the ones who do. Corey Woolfolk had very good scoring credentials when he came here, and he ended up playing all of six minutes last season, so you never know what's going to happen. (Just ask Shevchenko)

Oh and Jeffrey, I do want to get back to our discussion, cause I really don't think we're that far apart on things. But right now I've got a preseason game to get to. Later.

Krammerhead

04-01-2007, 08:14 PM

So if the Whitecaps are just about getting the best players regardless of nationality how does that explain them getting rid of Mike Franks and replacing him with American Josh Wicks, who wasn't even half as good as Franks?

Calgary Boomer

04-02-2007, 08:49 AM

I don't think dropping Franks had anything to do with how well he played, but because he didn't want to train with the team in the off season over working a more lucrative construction job (which is sad in itself).

I think Serge is a good Canadian Goalkeeper though, and I hope he backs up Caig.

Having seen Dustin Bixler twice over the weekend, I have to agree with K-head that indeed, USL2 signings need to be better than Bixler and Said Ali, when there are more capable players in these parts.

Richard

04-02-2007, 12:19 PM

Mike Franks was not dropped by the Whitecaps, they wanted him back but he chose not to re-sign in favour of pursuing other long term career options.

This is a classic example of what I have repeatedly said, that there are plenty of Canadian players good enough to play at the USL D1 level but they choose not to. This forces the Whitecaps to look further afield including the USA.

Krammerhead

04-02-2007, 12:54 PM

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Mike Franks was not dropped by the Whitecaps, they wanted him back but he chose not to re-sign in favour of pursuing other long term career options.

BS. He wanted to return but Calgary Boomer is correct in his summary that Franks did not want to train with the Whitecaps in the off season when he wasn't being paid. The Whitecaps made it impossible for him to return. In turn they signed an American who really is quite rubbish, I'm glad he has signed with Portland. In fact Portland fans were questioning the signing after watching him play for the Whitecaps the last couple of seasons.

Do the Whitecaps expect their American players to stay in town and train during the off season?

Richard

04-02-2007, 07:25 PM

OK, you can choose not to believe me if you wish. That's your prerogative.

Jeffery S.

04-02-2007, 07:37 PM

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Mike Franks was not dropped by the Whitecaps, they wanted him back but he chose not to re-sign in favour of pursuing other long term career options.

BS. He wanted to return but Calgary Boomer is correct in his summary that Franks did not want to train with the Whitecaps in the off season when he wasn't being paid. The Whitecaps made it impossible for him to return. In turn they signed an American who really is quite rubbish, I'm glad he has signed with Portland. In fact Portland fans were questioning the signing after watching him play for the Whitecaps the last couple of seasons.

Do the Whitecaps expect their American players to stay in town and train during the off season?

That is almost right, just have to clarify that Wicks had already played a year with Caps, indeed played the whole end of the season and beginning of the playoffs. He was competent but most felt Franks was quite superior.

So it is not like Caps signed Wicks to replace Franks, he was signed to be 2nd keeper.

As you correctly state Franks could not combine winter work obligations with training with the Caps.

Krammerhead

04-02-2007, 10:26 PM

quote:Originally posted by Jeffrey S.

quote:Originally posted by Krammerhead

quote:Originally posted by Richard

Mike Franks was not dropped by the Whitecaps, they wanted him back but he chose not to re-sign in favour of pursuing other long term career options.

BS. He wanted to return but Calgary Boomer is correct in his summary that Franks did not want to train with the Whitecaps in the off season when he wasn't being paid. The Whitecaps made it impossible for him to return. In turn they signed an American who really is quite rubbish, I'm glad he has signed with Portland. In fact Portland fans were questioning the signing after watching him play for the Whitecaps the last couple of seasons.

Do the Whitecaps expect their American players to stay in town and train during the off season?

That is almost right, just have to clarify that Wicks had already played a year with Caps, indeed played the whole end of the season and beginning of the playoffs. He was competent but most felt Franks was quite superior.

So it is not like Caps signed Wicks to replace Franks, he was signed to be 2nd keeper.

As you correctly state Franks could not combine winter work obligations with training with the Caps.

You are correct. Franks suffered an injury and was replaced by Wicks mid-season. When Franks recovered Lilley kept him in net when his performance didn't deserve it. After that season Franks was let go because of the reasons stated and Wicks took his spot. Was Wicks required to stay in Vancouver over the winter or was he allowed to go back home or is that only a requirement they have for the Canadian players?