So... who are you voting for, and why?

[Rudi]

Now that an upcoming election is official, I'd like to hear everyone's personal feelings and who they are throwing they're support behind.

(This is going to be a highly controversial thread, I think, but hell, politics is not child's play.)

[Cheeta]

Seriously?

Well, as seriously as this particular Cheeta can be, I'll be voting for the NDP candidate in my riding one Bill Blakie. He's a United minister, union man, and all and all incredibly frightening gentle giant (and Gawd awful bagpipe player, ug) from Transcona.

Very sharp fellow and much respected in the riding. Changing boundrys and suburban growth haven't kept him from winning majoritys time and again. Were he to retire the NDP might have trouble in the riding, but he isn't, so they won't.

I do however keep an open mind except when it comes to the Conservatives. I've an unquenchable hate on for all things Mulroney. Harper wanted the PCs, then he can have them and rot too.

Not at all a Layton fan. Not at all...

[River City]

Edmonton East is
MP Peter Goldring, Conservative
Nicole Martel, Liberal
Arlene Chapman, NDP

Definitely not voting Conservative. Regardless of my personal history with the PCs/Conservatives, Goldring hasn't done squat for the riding. Still the least desirable in Edmonton. And his wife scares me too. I feel bad for the big guy if actually loses the election and has to spend more time with her.

[Grizzly]

Will probably vote Green unless there is a realistic chance that Harper might win. I hope the Greens might actually win one seat this time which would probably be the only beneficial thing that could result from what will probably be a wasted election resulting in a Liberal minority government. However, the prospect of Harper resigning after a poor result and the possibility of actually having a credible leader of the opposition is certainly attractive. Am voting in Ottawa which is still my official resisdence but if I was voting in Montreal would probably vote Liberal which would be an anti-Bloc vote more than a pro-Liberal vote.

[DoyleG]

Last election I was living in Edmonton-Strathcona and voted for Rahim Jaffer.

I now live in Edmonton-Centre and I'm going to vote for Conservative candidate Leslie Hawn.

[Rudi]

Since I started the thread, I should probably volunteer my info as well.

I generally vote Libreal, but I do not know enough about the candidates in my riding (boundaries where redrawn, etc.) to make a completely informed decision.

That said, I DO NOT want to see Stephen Harper in power, thus my choices are limited.

[Joe Concacaf]

Is there an 'against all' option on the ballot? There should be.

I'm voting green.

[Sigma]

For me it all depends on who is running in my local riding. I have always voted Liberal or Green in the past. Last time around I voted Liberal. For my riding in Eastern Ontario, I can almost say with 99% accuracy that the conservatives will win. Heck, we voted the Reform in a few years back......

I've just been defeated! Hurrah!
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/pix/martin_cp_9009731.jpg

Personally, if the conservatives win, I might just stay in England. ;)

[aussoccerfan]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma

For me it all depends on who is running in my local riding. I have always voted Liberal or Green in the past. Last time around I voted Liberal. For my riding in Eastern Ontario, I can almost say with 99% accuracy that the conservatives will win. Heck, we voted the Reform in a few years back......

I've just been defeated! Hurrah!
http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/pix/martin_cp_9009731.jpg

Personally, if the conservatives win, I might just stay in England. ;)


What's wrong with Conservatives ?

[Sigma]

They are not my cup of tea.... English breakfast tea that is...

[Desigol]

As reported in Yahoo;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051129/ap_on_re_ca/canada_elections

[Massive Attack]

If it was up to me, I'd mark an x on 'None of The Above'. Because that is not an option, I will most likely vote for the Green Party, or some other fringe party, in protest of the others. Despite this, my riding has had the same Liberal MP since 1989, Maurizio Bevilaqua. The only way that another party will win this seat is if they run an Al Pallidini-type canadate (like the provincial Tories did to win this riding in the 90's).

[argh1]

In the last redistribution my riding is Fundy instead of one of the Moncton area seats, so some guy from Saint John will represent me again?
But weighing all the options, I will vote for whatever side wields the most pork barreling ability. As in who has the best chance of winning. Although I admit Harper strikes me as a red-neck and McKay strikes me as a turn-coat and the NDP stike me as a know nothing about finances and NB only has 10 seats anyway and the Grits have been in power too long and..............
Is there an I don't give a F**k Party, all you political parties are the same once you get power anywho.
Is there a party that'll make Quebec seperation referendums be a 3 out of five so we don't have to keep revisting that every so many years or promises to never ever re-open the constitution. I'll vote for them.
EDIT: Seriously, I'll probably vote NDP, if I vote at all. The Liberals have had 12 years and I don't trust Harper/Mckay.

[jonovision]

I've been old enough to vote for 5 years now and in that stretch I've managed to vote Green, Liberal, NDP and PC (federally and provincially). That was in my parents riding in Charleswood (semi-suburban Winnipeg), but now I live in a more central part of the city. Pat Martin (there are 2 in Parliament) is the current MP, from the NDP, and is a good guy. He will almost certainly win this riding, so I might consider voting Green again, but not Liberal or Conservative this time around.

[Timotas]

Only 19, so I'm new to this. Last time around I voted PC. Dunno much about the situation now...

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by Timotas

Only 19, so I'm new to this. Last time around I voted PC. Dunno much about the situation now...

PC interesting choice.
I'm not sure if the Reform gave up their ideals in the "Unite the Right" movement or if the PC's moved to a "we can win" by merging with Reform. But I somehow think after Harper is gone the old PC backroom guys will have control.
Either way either the remnants of PC or Reform will control, but both gave up their idealogical differences to form a party that might win as neither Reform nor PC's would win one thier own.
So basicaly our "new" Conservative Party is a coalition of "we wanna win" parties.

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by argh1
I'm not sure if the Reform gave up their ideals in the "Unite the Right" movement or if the PC's moved to a "we can win" by merging with Reform. But I somehow think after Harper is gone the old PC backroom guys will have control.
Either way either the remnants of PC or Reform will control, but both gave up their idealogical differences to form a party that might win as neither Reform nor PC's would win one thier own.
So basicaly our "new" Conservative Party is a coalition of "we wanna win" parties.


Reform's ideals were 'Liberals are bad. Let's get in.'
The PC's ideals (the ones that merged) were 'We can't get in by ourselves. Let's forget ideals and ride on someone's coattails.'

So with a party that was formed with the sole purpose of getting into power (with no actual policy platform, or vision for Canada), how does that make them different or better than the Liberals?

What's the point of switching drivers, when the car's stuck on a road to nowhere? Is the Natural Law still around?

[rdroze]

Wow. A little surprised to see so much mention of the Green Party. And that's who I'm voting for too.

[analyst]

I alternate between the Liberals and the NDP depending on who the candidate is. This time I will vote for the Green party because not enough is being done to address pollution in the world, air pollution, water pollution, ground waste, global warming, increasing pollution in the salt water reservoirs we call oceans, etc.

We (North Americans) consume a disproportionately large share of the worlds non-renewable resources and we pollute much more than people in third world ****ries. Too many North Americans drive huge vehicles.

[Sigma]

quote:Originally posted by rdroze

Wow. A little surprised to see so much mention of the Green Party. And that's who I'm voting for too.


Some vote for the Green Party as a protest vote (people I've talked to in the past), while others actually like the ideals of the Green Party.

[Blue and White Army]

I'll be voting Green as well.

I must say, though - I don't like the "nutter left" element in so many North American Green parties. I wish they were a little more mainstream, such as in much of Europe (i.e. Germany). Even here in England they're perceived as being fairly "fringe". Members often consist of granola-munchers, and/or radical nutjobs who should be in Greenpeace, not the Green Party.

But I do agree with Green's main ideals, as long as they're part of a coherent and multi-dimensional platform.

I happily voted Green in the 2001 BC provincial election (arguably home to Canada's most "mainstream" Green Party), where they got almost 20%, if memory serves, and would have voted for them again this year if I hadn't lost my BC residency.

I've voted NDP federally every since I started voting, but only as the "least worst" option. I don't like how the NDP are so tied to labour, and how they're so dogmatic in supporting anything "left". Mainstream Greens can't really be pinned on a two-dimensional, "left-right" political spectrum, as they're much more pragmatic.

Two federal elections ago the federal Greens still seemed a bit fringe, but I reckon I'll feel more comfortable voting Green this time around. Quite a bit of evidence to suggest they've (partially) shaken off the nutter element.

Hoozah.

[argh1]

quote:Originally posted by River City
What's the point of switching drivers, when the car's stuck on a road to nowhere? Is the Natural Law still around?

And that my friend is the problem.
We're stuck in the mud spinning our tires. Who's gonna keep us above the dash boards and who's gonna move us forward.
Sh*t we have not much to look ahead to, I'm afraid another minority gov't is in the works.........the water is coming through the floor boards.....our political parties only want power and we recognize it......

[Blue and White Army]

quote:Originally posted by River City

What's the point of switching drivers, when the car's stuck on a road to nowhere? Is the Natural Law still around?
Heh, it was nutters like that who got me interested in politics as a kid.

My first impression of politics was watching a local council election debate, with various boring people babbling on about dull-as-dishwater topics. Then the camera pans onto a man in a full Godzilla costume. And my interest in politics was born.

Actually wrote a paper back during uni on various "fringe" political parties, and why some of them were (relatively) more successful than others. Good times.

Natural Law were a good laugh, with their yogic flying and other bizarre stuff.

My all-time favourite was the Rhino Party. Back in 2001 I wrote a few satirical press releases for them. Their most recent leader, Brian "Gozilla" Salmi, seems to be trying to promote the party up in Yukon these days. Imagine Krammerhead on crack, and that's what Salmi was to politics. A true legend, and I don't use that term lightly.

[Jarrek]

Not sure who I will vote for (probably Conservative), because my Liberal candidate Michael Ignatieff is anti-Ukrainian:

Quotes from his book "Blood and Belonging"

On Ukraine and Ukrainians:

"My difficulty in taking Ukraine seriously goes deeper than just my cosmopolitan suspicion of nationalists everywhere. Somewhere inside I'm also what Ukrainians would call a great Russian and there is just a trace of old Russian disdain for these little Russians,"

On Ukrainian Culture:

"embroidered peasant shirts, the nasal whine of ethnic instruments, phony Cossacks in cloaks and boots."

"You come away from the Ukraine, believing that all that rhetoric about nationhood, about the return to Europe, is very distant from the quotidian reality."

Much of the problem, is that everyone alive now has known only the Soviet way of life. Behind them lies only the nostalgic paradise of pre-revolutionary peasant Ukraine, the lost world now caricatured in the hotel handicraft shops."

[matthew]

I have been seriously considering voting Green, but haven't really had a chance. I live in a traditional NDP stronghold which fell to the PCs in a close one last time around. So I think my vote might matter this time around (I know 'every vote counts' but I think you know what I mean), and I won't be able to go Green.

They might not even run a candidate in my riding, we'll see.

Any early indication that a Green Party member would have a fighting chance anywhere?

Oh and I miss the Rhino Party too.

cheers,
matthew

[Daniel]

Is he Russian?

In France, even the Communists (THE COMMIES!) have people in parliament. They usually make for the best soundbites :P.

As for me, my riding is stuck on red, but I gotta vote since I missed last year: can't get enough 'stache!

[BC supporter]

I will be voting, with confidence, for Denise Savoie, a popular former Victoria city councillor, who is representing the NDP. Now that the long-time Liberal MP, David Anderson, is retiring, I will be very, very surprised if this riding does not go to the NDP.

The NDP is no panacea by any stretch, but I have fundamental problems with the Liberal, Conservative and Green parties, whose values are inconsistent with mine. I would hope that this election returns a minority government with the NDP holding the balance of power. I consider it irrelevant which of the two largest parties forms that government, as long as neither gets a majority.

[rdroze]

quote:Originally posted by Jarrek

Not sure who I will vote for (probably Conservative), because my Liberal candidate Michael Ignatieff is anti-Ukrainian:



Well then that was pretty stupid of him choosing to run in a riding with a large Ukrainian population, wasn't it?

[Former Champ]

Voting is for suckers.

I generally spoil my ballot to show my disdain for choosing leaders through a popularity contest among an uniformed populace. I draw a pic of a bunny or something. In the last civic election I wrote in Osama bin Laden as my choice for Catholic School Board.

If I had an extra $1,000 laying around that I didn't want I'd run for the Marijuana Party

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Jarrek

Not sure who I will vote for (probably Conservative), because my Liberal candidate Michael Ignatieff is anti-Ukrainian:


He's of Russian blood so it seems he has a Ukrainian envy.

Surprised that Martin would accept having a leadership rival into the Liberal party. Especially someone who is a supporter of the war in Iraq and of Bush's foreign policy.

[Blue and White Army]

quote:Originally posted by matthew

So I think my vote might matter this time around (I know 'every vote counts' but I think you know what I mean), and I won't be able to go Green.
Just imagine how many people are fed (and willingly swallow) the media line that only either the Liberals or Conservatives can ever form government. Imagine how many of these people guilt themselves into voting for one of the big two/three, despite really wanting to vote for someone else?

And imagine if all of these people refused to be guilted into voting for the "least worst" of the big 2/3, and voted for who they really wanted.

Then, and only then, will we witness any real change.

That, or kick out "first past the post" for a PR system.

[GRE004]

Joe Concacaf, Massive Attack- you DO have the option of voting for NONE OF THE ABOVE, its called Spoiling the ballot! I did it last time, simply write NO CONFIDENCE across the ballot and give it in. That means you have no confidence in anyone.

Don't forget the Conservatives are really Reformers hiding behind the Conservative banner. They tried it on their own for a while and got nowhere and then seeing that the PC's were struggling they found a target ripe for the picking. That was a hostile takeover of the PC party not a merger! I noticed Martin referred to them as Neo-Cons the other day, I think that should tell you what you are getting there (Not that the Liberals are any better).

Personally I say they are all fruit off the same tree, if I may use that analogy. Its the same crap just with a different name attached to it. No matter who you vote for or who gets into power they are all the same- a corrupt bunch of liars who think by making every promise imaginable under the moon that people will actually believe them and vote for them, who buys this crap?!

IF I vote for anyone, it will probably be the Greens because they are the only ones who support Alternative Medicine.:)

Some wise words to live by:

"Fool me once shame on You, fool me twice shame on Me!"

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by GRE004
IF I vote for anyone, it will probably be the Greens because they are the only ones who support Alternative Medicine.:)


http://www.cannabisculture.com/library/images/uploads/3496-Jacksignedflyer.jpg

[Christian B.]

I'll vote for the Conservative. The problem is that I'm probably going to be the only one in the whole province of Quebec to vote for Harper. :(

[GRE004]

Daniel,

When I said Alternative Medicine, that is NOT what I was talking about! But, I guess for all those brainwashed by Big Pharma, perhaps that is what you think of when you hear Alterntive Medicine- weed.

Boy, this world needs help- fast!

[Daniel]

quote:Originally posted by Christian B.

I'll vote for the Conservative. The problem is that I'm probably going to be the only one in the whole province of Quebec to vote for Harper. :(


Some wouldn't see that as a problem :D.

[jeffymac1971]

My riding is Edmonton-Spruce Grove and my current mp is Rona Ambrose from the Conservatives. I despise the current political system in this country especially the conservatives and the liberals. The NDP is well know to the tax the s**t out of hardworking Canadians and unfortunately the Green Party has no hope in hell of getting elected in this riding.

Ambrose won by a 5:1 margin in the last election and there is no way she will be defeated. I think I am going to spoil my ballot because I am disgusted and disillusion with the polticians and the political system in this country.

[Joe Concacaf]

The campaigning has started, and they're arguing over who loves Canada more.

If Harper and Martin really loved Canada, they would have themselves deported.

[Kurosawa]

quote:Originally posted by Joe Concacaf


The campaigning has started, and they're arguing over who loves Canada more.

If Harper and Martin really loved Canada, they would have themselves deported.


I bet Duceppe is'nt taking part in that debate!!!;)

[Christian B.]

quote:Originally posted by Daniel


quote:Originally posted by Christian B.

I'll vote for the Conservative. The problem is that I'm probably going to be the only one in the whole province of Quebec to vote for Harper. :(


Some wouldn't see that as a problem :D.


So what is the alternative?

The Bloc? Explain me what the hell they're doing in Ottawa for over 12 years now. What is their utility? Complain about everything?

The Liberals? A corrupted party. Not for me. They are dead for me.

The NDP? If I want to live in a communist country, I'll move to Cuba.

[Daniel]

Well, you could come to France where there are actual commies in parliament and as mayors :o...

;)

[Blue and White Army]

quote:Originally posted by Christian B.

The NDP? If I want to live in a communist country, I'll move to Cuba.
Well then I guess you don't want a social health care system, as that was the idea of the NDP.

Might as well move down south... but not quite as far as Cuba. Just south of the 49th...

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by jeffymac1971

My riding is Edmonton-Spruce Grove and my current mp is Rona Ambrose from the Conservatives. I despise the current political system in this country especially the conservatives and the liberals. The NDP is well know to the tax the s**t out of hardworking Canadians and unfortunately the Green Party has no hope in hell of getting elected in this riding.

Ambrose won by a 5:1 margin in the last election and there is no way she will be defeated. I think I am going to spoil my ballot because I am disgusted and disillusion with the polticians and the political system in this country.


Don't like Rona because she don't like old white men like you? ;):D

The only battleground in Alberta is Edmonton-Centre.

[Reza]

My voting is personal, but it won't be the conservatives definitely.

If interested politically, I think you should look into www.fairvote.ca btw, because regardless of your political belief, I think we need electoral reform.

As for Ignatief, though I find it quite ridiculous to parachute someone out of nowhere into a riding, I think allegations against him are almost just as dumbfounded. You can't go through a book, find a couple of quotes and then accuse the guy of this and that. That kind of b.s. is no longer worthy of information age.

[Ed]

I live in Harper's riding but can't vote for him because of certain agenda items. My vote will be a protest vote regardless of the party as he is a safe bet to win in SW Calgary.

[jeffymac1971]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG


quote:Originally posted by jeffymac1971

My riding is Edmonton-Spruce Grove and my current mp is Rona Ambrose from the Conservatives. I despise the current political system in this country especially the conservatives and the liberals. The NDP is well know to the tax the s**t out of hardworking Canadians and unfortunately the Green Party has no hope in hell of getting elected in this riding.

Ambrose won by a 5:1 margin in the last election and there is no way she will be defeated. I think I am going to spoil my ballot because I am disgusted and disillusion with the polticians and the political system in this country.


Don't like Rona because she don't like old white men like you? ;):D

The only battleground in Alberta is Edmonton-Centre.


:DOld White Guy and I'm only 34...sheesh I must be getting up there

[jeffymac1971]

quote:Originally posted by Reza

My voting is personal, but it won't be the conservatives definitely.

If interested politically, I think you should look into www.fairvote.ca btw, because regardless of your political belief, I think we need electoral reform.

As for Ignatief, though I find it quite ridiculous to parachute someone out of nowhere into a riding, I think allegations against him are almost just as dumbfounded. You can't go through a book, find a couple of quotes and then accuse the guy of this and that. That kind of b.s. is no longer worthy of information age.




www.fairvote.ca is an execellent website, if anything we desperately need to change the voting system in this country, the first past the post system in this country is so screwed up and no wonder nobody's votes really count. I don't care if we have STV system or mixed proportional representation system, it has to be changed.

If you are pissed of democracy in this country, sign the petition and spread the word.

[Christian B.]

quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army


quote:Originally posted by Christian B.

The NDP? If I want to live in a communist country, I'll move to Cuba.
Well then I guess you don't want a social health care system, as that was the idea of the NDP.

Might as well move down south... but not quite as far as Cuba. Just south of the 49th...


Yes, you're right. I don't want a social health care system like the one we have here in Canada where you need to wait several months before getting an appointment with a specialist and yes if I could get a work permit I would have been gone south of the border a long long time ago.

[Grizzly]

Many of the problems in our current health care system are due to years of funding cuts by politicians who lean towards your philosophy. Nevertheless it is still one of the best systems in the world despite individual cases where people are waiting too long for certain treatments. It is much preferrable to the US system where rich people can get first class treatment for a cold sore while an average citizen is denied treatment for easily currable diseases that are routinely treated in poor countries around the world. For example, I had an American friend whose brother would have been denied a life saving operation if his parents had not quickly come up with the $7000 required for the hospital to operate. I could go on and on with such stories and figures from deaths from simple diseases such as German measles (because of a lack of free school immunization) to infant mortality rates. Having lived in Canada, Germany, Russia and the US, I can say that Canada and Germany had quite good systems but I would even choose the Russian system over the US one. In the US the rich get very good treatment but the average to below average income citizen receives far better coverage in Russia than in the US despite the vast difference in living standard.

If you are so crazy about the US system I hope you immigrate there soon. Maybe you can get a free holiday in Iraq as well courtesy of their superior political system. I just hope that as soon as you get an illness you maintain your view of our health care system and don't return to get treatment that won't bankrupt you. If you are so enamored with the US why don't you post on their soccer supporters website instead of ours?

[Christian B.]

Grizzly:

First of all I was responding to the guy that lives in England. I was agreeing with him that I didn't like our health care system and also I was agreeing that the US was an alternative for me. Those were 2 different things. I never said that the US health care system was better than the Canadian one. I keep my opinion on this subject for myself so I don't know why you started to criticize the US health care system since nobody here said that it was a good or a bad one.

You think that the Canadian government should put more money in our health care system. Even if we would put billions and billions more, the problem will always be recurrent. Our population is getting older and older. When it’s 100% free for everybody there will always people who will exaggerate. When I go to the emergency and I wait for a minimum of 4-5 hours I always look around and I see ton of peoples there only for a simple cold. I’d like to have a system with some sort of a minimal fee per usage, $5 or $10 for example. Oh! and by the way our health care system isn’t exempt of horror stories.

You lived in 4 countries? Good for you. I was born and spent my entire life here and I wish that I could have stayed in other places and had your experience. However, having spent my entire life here, I don’t appreciate that you tell me what I should think. In Russia before 1990, the population had no right to think. Here, we can think and have opinions. I won’t be put in jail for that.

Your post was excellent. I'll just ignore your last paragraph that was probably written with frustration. I respect your opinion and I wish that you could do the same with mine. Your truth doesn’t need to be mine. I’m a supporter of the Canadian national team, I don’t take for the US and I don’t need your authorization for posting here. I have no interest in posting on a US soccer forum since I don’t support any of their teams.

I’ll finish my post with a phrase similar to your last phrase, if you don’t accept other philosophy than yours, why don’t you stick to soccer?

[Blue and White Army]

Anywho..... getting back on topic....

The Rhino Party of Canada are back. I'll post more details in the days ahead.

Anybody interested?

[Grizzly]

quote:I don't want a social health care system like the one we have here in Canada where you need to wait several months before getting an appointment with a specialist and yes if I could get a work permit I would have been gone south of the border a long long time ago.

Christian, in one sentence you both disparage our health care system without pointing out many of the positive things in this system and state that if given the chance you would have moved to the US long ago. You did not state you would move to the US if you got a good job offer, had an educational opportunity, married an American woman or for some other reason. You did not state the US is simply an option for you but stated you would have moved there long ago if only they would have let you in. This certainly implies that you consider the American system superior to ours, an opinion I certainly do not share especially having lived there. Now in your latest post you are claiming to be a great Canadian supporter, so which is it? You have every right to prefer the American system but I have every right to criticize this view. If anyone wants tells me they would have moved to the US long ago if given the chance than in my opinion they can't leave fast enough. If this is not your view then don't make posts that imply this.

Additionally, I certainly don't need lectures about respecting others viewpoints from someone who compares the NDP to the totalitarian, communist regime in Cuba. I don't particularly like the NDP (not because of their socialist philosophy but because I think this is a very poorly run party with poorly thought out platforms) but to compare them with the Cuban communist party is ridiculuous and certainly disrespectful. However, far from trying to control anyone's ideas nor demanding politically correct respect, the only thing I would demand is that one respects the right of people to have differing views whatever they may be, smart, stupid, admirable, repugnant or otherwise. There is no requirement that anyone must respect other ideas that one finds repugnant only that they respect the right to for such people to hold such ideas even if they are committed to fighting against them. Thus, if you think the NDP are Cuban style communists, our health care system is completely useless and would prefer to live in the US you have every right to do so just as I have every right to strongly disagree with such opinions in whatever manner I choose. If these are not your opinions than you should be more clear in your posts about your true beliefs.

[DoyleG]

Grizzly seems to have a fear.

A fear of two-tier Australian Health Care
A fear of two-tier French Health Care
A fear of two-tier German Health Care
A fear of two-tier Swedish Health Care
A fear of two-tier British Health Care

But I guess no of those are as scary as the ever popular "Two-tier American Health Care".

OECD studies don't put Canadian health care that far above American health care.

[Sigma]

How Harper can win Canada, from an American conservative opinion...

Here is the conclusion of the article.

"Stephen Harper and the Conservatives have an uphill battle over the next couple of months. The Tories must put forth alternatives and explain them clearly. They must do so in a way that will inspire enough Canadians to put aside their reservations and vote for them. The Tories must stay with their message and be circumspect in how they speak to people. Without discretion, the media will take any opportunity to blow up a remark a thousand times its size so that it creates a life of its own. If transgressions are made, Harper must be prepared to nip them in the bud. The Tories must avoid biting at the bait of Quebec separatism or anti-Americanism for the reasons alluded to earlier.

For his part, Harper must project an image of a man confident enough to listen what other people have to say to him and empathize with them. He must also inspire in Canadians the idea that he will get things done. This confidence must be projected in the debate halls and in the dining halls north of the 49.

Stephen Harper and the Conservatives have time on their side. It is theirs to use. But they must use this time wisely."

http://www.americandaily.com/article/10562

[8)][8)][|)]

[devioustrevor]

I'm in a Solidly Liberal riding so I'll be giving my vote to the Green Party.

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Sigma
The Tories must put forth alternatives and explain them clearly. They must do so in a way that will inspire enough Canadians to put aside their reservations and vote for them.

For his part, Harper must project an image of a man confident enough to listen what other people have to say to him and empathize with them.


Harper has the same personality as the Science prof from Ferris Bueller. Inspiring? Hardly. The most interesting thing about this election is seeing who is able to raise their media profiles in order to eventually replace their respective Party Leader after the election.

Interesting choices in all parties although I don't think Layton will be replaced unless he loses a lot of seats (which I don't think will happen).

[Marc]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG

Grizzly seems to have a fear.

A fear of two-tier Australian Health Care
A fear of two-tier French Health Care
A fear of two-tier German Health Care
A fear of two-tier Swedish Health Care
A fear of two-tier British Health Care

But I guess no of those are as scary as the ever popular "Two-tier American Health Care".



Of course the idea of two-tiered Swedish health care is not as scary because many of those states you mentioned have much more well-developed social systems than we do to catch those who fall between the cracks that a two-tiered system in Canada would create.

I assume since you dont' find two-tiered Swedish health care scary you find their taxation, social assistance, labour market management, childcare, employment insurance, education, and training systems rather enticing too, Doyle? (Just to a name a few.)

[ted]

quote:Originally posted by Joe Concacaf

Is there an 'against all' option on the ballot? There should be.


I have always thought that "None of the above" should be on every ballot and if it gets the most votes they have to re-do that riding over again with all different candidates. :D

As for me I wil be voting for Denise Savoie (NDP) here in Victoria. She was a great city councillor and will be a better MP than David Anderson was.

[john tv]

It seems to be all about health care. The jobless rate is kind of acceptable and the overall economy appears to be doing well.Being over 65 I have never experienced any problem money wise. when i go to the doc I don't pay,when I get my prescriptions I pay something like $ 4.00.
I pay once a year a deductable of $ 100.00.I have been in the hospital and had many many test done,not a dime,nor any hospital cost. I have lived and worked in the US and I can assure you things are a lot different. I strongly believe that we have a very good system.Even compared to Holland from what I remember. The pension plans are also good.There are some some problems that no one not even one party talks about and in fact it is a terrible shame,but since no one has a solution or even talks about it,it makes no difference. So I will vote again for the liberals,expecting to keep it going and hope that the conservatives don't get any hay out of that scandal. I always compare the Conservatives to the Republicans and look what a mess they are making scary stuff and very costly to us.I was a NDP guy but it became clear that they simply don't have the horses to run a campaign nor the proper leadership and candidates.They may have the right ideas but not the expertise to see it through.

[Former Champ]

Vote Quimby!!!

[Blue and White Army]

http://home.mchsi.com/~guesswho/quimby.gif

[Former Champ]

If you were running for Mayor he'd vote for you.

[Joe Concacaf]

Quimby = Paul Martin?

"I, er, ah, I, er..." etc, etc

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Joe Concacaf


Quimby = Paul Martin?

"I, er, ah, I, er..." etc, etc


Funny you brng that up. He seems far more comfortable speaking in French than he does in English.

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG


quote:Originally posted by Joe Concacaf


Quimby = Paul Martin?

"I, er, ah, I, er..." etc, etc


Funny you brng that up. He seems far more comfortable speaking in French than he does in English.


Did you read Chantal Hebert's column last week? Apparently Martin's French is horrendous. He told an audience of Francophones earlier this month that his party was "the best to lose Quebec."

[BC supporter]

quote:He told an audience of Francophones earlier this month that his party was "the best to lose Quebec."And people say Martin's not honest...

[Former Champ]

So...

A friend of mine who is a scientologist tells me that a race of evil kitties is responsible for all of the problems in the solar system.

I'm not sure if that's true, but I'll cast my ballot for the evil kitty party this time around.

[Joe Concacaf]

quote:Originally posted by DoyleG


quote:Originally posted by Joe Concacaf


Quimby = Paul Martin?

"I, er, ah, I, er..." etc, etc


Funny you brng that up. He seems far more comfortable speaking in French than he does in English.


And Martin's 'I am a Quebecer' bit sounds quite a bit like Quimby's 'Ich bin ein Springfielder' bit. ;)

[Daniel]

Isn't he franco-Ontarian?

[argh1]

The polls suggest the Grits will sweep NB.
I'm still holding out for the "You've had two referendums in QC this one will be the last one, right? party"

[DoyleG]

Now where are we people with 20 days to go?

[mcgill]

In my riding, le Bloc Québécois has a majority of around 7000 and their MP will be reelected for sure.
In Québec, Conservatives could win one riding in Beauce, the balance will be Bloc or Liberals. Ministers Lisa Frulla and Pierre Pettigrew are in serious trouble. Minister Saada should be beaten on the South Shore of Montréal.
There is a strong anti-Liberals feeling all accross the province. The question is: will these people vote Bloc to protest against the Liberals or remain Liberals to stop the Bloc. They could vote Conservatives only where the Conservatives have a slight chance: Beauce and some Québec ridings.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by john tv

I was a NDP guy but it became clear that they simply don't have the horses to run a campaign nor the proper leadership and candidates.They may have the right ideas but not the expertise to see it through.


but do they have the right ideas given that we live in the year 2006? The world has changed quite a bit in the last 30 years and $$$ in capital can move instantly from one country to another at a stroke of a keyboard but this notion really seems to have escaped the NDP in Canada. End result, they really seem clueless to me with their policies and retoric. Or they make these claims because they know that they will never have to carry them out knowing taht they will never form the government. For example, they run around boasting that it was them who forced the the Liberals to repeal the Corporate tax cuts. Big deal, what difference does it really make to the average joe to know that X company has to pay more than otherwise. Corporation can easily modify their financing strategy so that the net effect on the tax base( revenue) is the same either way. Where does most of the employment come from, Private or public sector.

Besides how does increasing the tax base and, by extention, increasing the role of government actually create new wealth or make us any better off. The NPD seems obsessed with this make the rich pay mentality that preys on the resentment that a samll group in our society hold towards those who are successfull rather that looking to oneself for improvement. Ever seen some of the views Tony Blair ( Labour party) holds. He sounds more like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan than the NDP in Canada. Except for British Airways, there are no more unions left in the UK and no one seems to be missing them.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with pretty much the rest of your post. But as far as the NDP in Canada, I find them to be more of a nuissance to the canadian political process. The beauty of the US political system is that debates are centerred arround philsophical views much more than in Canada and thats because the NPD and Bloc have muddied the waters. The proof, NPD spends all of its time attacking the Liberals. Yeah right, I am sure that their hard core constituancy would find alot in common with Stephen Harper[}:)].

[analyst]

Some people I play recreational soccer with plan to vote Conservative again because they work for a company that does business with the Canadian Armed Forces. They want us to join the US in Iraq and any other places where the US decides to send its planes, tanks and soldiers. Of course my soccer playing buddies are actually a little too old to actually serve overseas themselves. I love the video clip of Stephen Harper criticizing Martin for not joining the US in IRAQ.

Its good to see the Liberals sweating now that they might lose. They have been arrogant for far too long. Their blog comments about Jack Layton and his wife and also about Stephen Harper are unacceptable.

The biggest campaign laugh goes to Gilles Duceppe who yesterday said the federal goverment should still have a sponsorship program in Quebeec, to help fund special events in Quebec. Duceppe's dishonesty and greed is appalling.

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by Free kick
Besides how does increasing the tax base and, by extention, increasing the role of government actually create new wealth or make us any better off. The NPD seems obsessed with this make the rich pay mentality that preys on the resentment that a samll group in our society hold towards those who are successfull rather that looking to oneself for improvement. Ever seen some of the views Tony Blair ( Labour party) holds. He sounds more like Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan than the NDP in Canada. Except for British Airways, there are no more unions left in the UK and no one seems to be missing them.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with pretty much the rest of your post. But as far as the NDP in Canada, I find them to be more of a nuissance to the canadian political process. The beauty of the US political system is that debates are centerred arround philsophical views much more than in Canada and thats because the NPD and Bloc have muddied the waters. The proof, NPD spends all of its time attacking the Liberals. Yeah right, I am sure that their hard core constituancy would find alot in common with Stephen Harper[}:)].




The beauty of the US system is it gives the impression of being a democracy without actually being one in practice. Every democratic system has problems and I would like to see ours reformed but the US system is the last model I would use. What is the philosophical debate there anyway? Between evil and more evil, both parties are supported by the same corporations who call the shots anyway.

I do agree with your opinion of the NDP as a poor version of a socialist party and in my opinion this is not recent but has always been the case. I disagree, however, that they do not add anything to the debate. They add a completely different alternative and voice, I just wish that they posed a more viable alternative. In other words I wish they displayed more common sense, leadership and competence instead of stock 60's socialist ideology (of course the Conservatives spout an ideology coming from a few decades before the 60's). Nevertheless I do appreciate that there is an alternative party having lived in the US during an election where all my friends voted for a party they despised because it was less bad than the Republicans. And for all his popularity I fail to see what Clinton actually did to make him so popular. He failed to get the promised public health care, provided little leadership and basically took the easiest solution to everything and was available to the highest bidder. The best you can say about him is that he didn't do all the bad things that Republican presidents typically do. I would not use Blair as an example of a better type of socialist because he is basically a sell out of any sort of ideal or ideology. Just like Clinton he constantly changes his view to the easiest solution and can be bought and sold. Layton has had some good ideas and seems intelligent but is far too self possessed and too much of a showman. It also somehow rubs me a bit wrong when the spouse of a party leader also runs in the same election, seems a little anti-democratic to me.

The Liberals have been in power too long and are arrogant but one thing they are not given enough credit for is the strength of our economy in the last decade. This is because most Canadians have not been living abroad and seeing what the economic situation in most western countries has been like in the last decade. Living most of the last decade in Europe I was quite aware of the huge difference in economic performance between Canada and most European countries. Even the US was in recession which usually brings us down as well but Canada in contrast was booming. This may not be solely the work of the government but they should be given some credit at least.

The reason I am voting Green is not only because for me the environment is the most important issue but because their platform deals with each issue on its own instead of everything coming from a standard right/left ideology. This is a refreshing contrast from most European green parties who have the same stock us vs them 60's socialist ideology as the NDP and who completely sell out if they ever get in a coalition government (partly because many of their ideas are not feasible so they have no choice but to sell out). I don't think that environmentalism has to be tied in with left wing politics. The Greens are also the only party pushing for significant electoral reform. Remember the Conservative/Alliance party was once called the reform party and had a very interesting platform of electoral reform proposals that were conveniently forgotten once they actually had members in parliament and Manning became the most dictatorial of all of the party leaders.

Of course I am against the Bloc which is a negative political force founded on the concept of ethnic nationalism and rewriting the history of Quebec and Canada to their liking. However, Duceppe is very smart in presenting all of their views in a very positive light and being very complementary to Canada to appear moderate to soft nationalists. What really worries me is Harper's Quebec proposals. I never would have voted for Harper anyway but this part of his platform shocked me for its absolute stupidity and failure to have the slightest understanding of Quebec. Of course, Duceppe who is a far smarter person and politician than Harper immediately endorsed this plan for the similar reason he thinks the sponsorship program should be restarted. The reason is that everytime the federal government gives Quebec more money/power, the Quebec electorate never gives the federal government any credit for this and the separatists use the extra money/power to promote their own agenda. Once we give them extra powers we will never be able to take it back and indeed this is the same pandering to Quebec that the Liberals did for so many years before realizing that it was contributing more to separatism than defeating it. We are far better off taking a stand, presenting Canada in a positive light, presenting the possible consequences of what separatism will lead to and having a backbone instead of being submissive and servile like Harper is willing to be. If Quebec still wants to separate, giving them a few more powers is not going to stop this and in my opinion will greatly aid the separatists.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

[quote][i]
The beauty of the US system is it gives the impression of being a democracy without actually being one in practice. Every democratic system has problems and I would like to see ours reformed but the US system is the last model I would use. What is the philosophical debate there anyway? Between evil and more evil, both parties are supported by the same corporations who call the shots anyway.

I do agree with your opinion of the NDP as a poor version of a socialist party and in my opinion this is not recent but has always been the case. I disagree, however, that they do not add anything to the debate. They add a completely different alternative and voice, I just wish that they posed a more viable alternative. In other words I wish they displayed more common sense, leadership and competence instead of stock 60's socialist ideology (of course the Conservatives spout an ideology coming from a few decades before the 60's). Nevertheless I do appreciate that there is an alternative party having lived in the US during an election where all my friends voted for a party they despised because it was less bad than the Republicans. And for all his popularity I fail to see what Clinton actually did to make him so popular. He failed to get the promised public health care, provided little leadership and basically took the easiest solution to everything and was available to the highest bidder. The best you can say about him is that he didn't do all the bad things that Republican presidents typically do. I would not use Blair as an example of a better type of socialist because he is basically a sell out of any sort of ideal or ideology. Just like Clinton he constantly changes his view to the easiest solution and can be bought and sold. Layton has had some good ideas and seems intelligent but is far too self possessed and too much of a showman. It also somehow rubs me a bit wrong when the spouse of a party leader also runs in the same election, seems a little anti-democratic to me.

The Liberals have been in power too long and are arrogant but one thing they are not given enough credit for is the strength of our economy in the last decade. This is because most Canadians have not been living abroad and seeing what the economic situation in most western countries has been like in the last decade. Living most of the last decade in Europe I was quite aware of the huge difference in economic performance between Canada and most European countries. Even the US was in recession which usually brings us down as well but Canada in contrast was booming. This may not be solely the work of the government but they should be given some credit at least.

The reason I am voting Green is not only because for me the environment is the most important issue but because their platform deals with each issue on its own instead of everything coming from a standard right/left ideology. This is a refreshing contrast from most European green parties who have the same stock us vs them 60's socialist ideology as the NDP and who completely sell out if they ever get in a coalition government (partly because many of their ideas are not feasible so they have no choice but to sell out). I don't think that environmentalism has to be tied in with left wing politics. The Greens are also the only party pushing for significant electoral reform. Remember the Conservative/Alliance party was once called the reform party and had a very interesting platform of electoral reform proposals that were conveniently forgotten once they actually had members in parliament and Manning became the most dictatorial of all of the party leaders.

Of course I am against the Bloc which is a negative political force founded on the concept of ethnic nationalism and rewriting the history of Quebec and Canada to their liking. However, Duceppe is very smart in presenting all of their views in a very positive light and being very complementary to Canada to appear moderate to soft nationalists. What really worries me is Harper's Quebec proposals. I never would have voted for Harper anyway but this part of his platform shocked me for its absolute stupidity and failure to have the slightest understanding of Quebec. Of course, Duceppe who is a far smarter person and politician than Harper immediately endorsed this plan for the similar reason he thinks the sponsorship program should be restarted. The reason is that everytime the federal government gives Quebec more money/power, the Quebec electorate never gives the federal government any credit for this and the separatists use the extra money/power to promote their own agenda. Once we give them extra powers we will never be able to take it back and indeed this is the same pandering to Quebec that the Liberals did for so many years before realizing that it was contributing more to separatism than defeating it. We are far better off taking a stand, presenting Canada in a positive light, presenting the possible consequences of what separatism will lead to and having a backbone instead of being submissive and servile like Harper is willing to be. If Quebec still wants to separate, giving them a few more powers is not going to stop this and in my opinion will greatly aid the separatists.


I didn't want to leave the impression that I thought that the US system was good or better because debates centered around philosophical issues. I agree that there are many things that I dispise about their system. One that comes to mind is this obsession that they have will labeling people and ideas. If you take a stand on something in the US, you are more likely to get, as you stated, labeled ( eg.: evil, non evil, neo-con, liberal, bleeding heart, red neck etc etc) rather than have your idea debated properly on its merits or benefits to the country and its people. Thankfully we don't have that propblem to the same degree here.

One thing that Clinton had that cannot be underestimated in politics, is his appearance. I know it sounds cynical, but what else is your typical middle aged person who really doesn't read anything other than grocery store tabloids, going to base their ballot box decision on. I am sure that we have all overheard the kind of conversation from every day folks that make you shake your head. I would guess that, all things being equal, the popularity amongst middle aged women for a guy who looks like Clinton as opposed to, say, Robert Stanfield is good for roughly 10-20% of the popular vote. Thats not to denigrate women voters, men are no better. Your likely to hear that silly adjective " Trustworthyness" bandied around. But, how the hell can you qualify trustworthiness by just their appearance.

Got to agree completely on the Bloc. Their hypocracy is astounding. I have never denied that a serious price should be paid for the diversion and mismanagement of funds during the sponsorship scandal. But what really irks me is what I believe is the real motivation behind the uproar in Quebec over this scandal and the fact that the Bloc has milked to its full politcal advantage. Its not IMO about ethical matters but rather the fact that someone was finally trying sell Canada to Quebecers. Had it not been about the fact that the sponsorship program meant more visibilty for Canadian flags and symbols, I'll bet that the issue would have been dead and forgotten by now.

IMO, Harper is not entirely clueless about Quebec since he was born and raised there, but I believe that his constitents and followers are. And, that is what counts in shaping his views and policies. That is what I find scary because I see many of his supporters as the type who would rather have Quebec and the French language out of their faces and coversely, many of the Duceppes constitents and followers would like to see Canada and the english language out of their faces. That is what makes their alliance possible and scary and it will happen. Mark my words on it. Much of what we saw from Meech lake reflected these sentiments and I beleive more of the same kind of thinking and policies are comming if Harper gets in.

[Grizzly]

I agree with most of your post but Harper is a Torontonian (a fact that could cause as much anti-TO
posts as the MLS team). From Wiki:

Harper was born and raised in Toronto and attended Richview Collegiate Institute before finding employment in the oil and gas industry in Alberta in his early twenties.

I also think he is as clueless about Quebec as many of his supporters although unlike some of them probably does not want them to separate. What I find particularly ridiculous about the Bloc criticism of the sponsorship program is 1) it is the same thing they have been doing when in power to promote separatism 2) the companies and individuals that ripped off the federal government are the same companies and individuals who would be running Quebec's economy if it separated and 3) many of these companies and individuals were separatists themselves willing to sell themselves to whoever would pay them but more than happy to sink the federalists once things blew up and the money had to be given up.

Martin may not be a born and raised Quebecois but he has at least lived here for a significant portion of his life. I think this issue is largely about who is a Quebecois, who was a Quebecois in the past (the PQ/BQ wants to erase the many contributions of the english/scottish/irish etc throughout the provinces history, eg. the changing of the name of the city of Hull to the French Gatineau) and can one be a Quebecois if one is not French and not raised in Quebec.

[Grizzly]

One other thing, Freekick. Do you actually think Clinton is attractive? I always thought he was an ugly guy who proved the adage that if you have money, power and prominence you can get lots of women even if you are ugly. I think even George Bush is better looking than Clinton as much as I hate to admit it. Another interesting thing is Hilary is one of the few women who seems to have gotten more attractive when she aged. Ever seen old photos of her, she was pretty plain in her 20's although maybe the improvement is just the professional make up and hairdo people's work. Now she looks pretty good for her age and certainly more attractive than a certain Monica and a few other of his girls. I always wonder why men cheat with women who are less attractive than their wives. I can understand if you are cheating with a babe and it is hard to resist the temptation but I know quite a few guys who cheat with women who don't look half as attractive as their wives and wouldn't tempt me as a single man in the least.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

One other thing, Freekick. Do you actually think Clinton is attractive? I always thought he was an ugly guy who proved the adage that if you have money, power and prominence you can get lots of women even if you are ugly. I think even George Bush is better looking than Clinton as much as I hate to admit it. Another interesting thing is Hilary is one of the few women who seems to have gotten more attractive when she aged. Ever seen old photos of her, she was pretty plain in her 20's although maybe the improvement is just the professional make up and hairdo people's work. Now she looks pretty good for her age and certainly more attractive than a certain Monica and a few other of his girls. I always wonder why men cheat with women who are less attractive than their wives. I can understand if you are cheating with a babe and it is hard to resist the temptation but I know quite a few guys who cheat with women who don't look half as attractive as their wives and wouldn't tempt me as a single man in the least.


I cannot understand what he would see in Monica Lewinski either. But Jennifer Flowers is another story :). As far as whose better looking, I am the wrong person to judge :D. But hey, I am going by what the media says. I recall a report on Hillary clinton whereby some had question how she managed to scoop up " The campus Hunk".

[Grizzly]

Well if that was the campus hunk, it must have been a pretty ugly campus. I think that being a famous and powerful politician changes everyone's perception of you. Not to mention that every President has a large staff whose job it is to plant positive things about him in the media. Flowers was actually quite pretty but what about Paula Jones who makes Lewinsky look beautiful in comparison. I mean I would think in the position of governor/president/most powerful man in the world, one would be getting only girls that look like Flowers and not every third time.

[DoyleG]

http://zone.artizans.com/images/previews/MAY1426.pvw.jpg

[shaku_bert]

Polls (as of January 13) are pointing to a conservative majority. Few saw that coming when this thread was started.

[Cheeta]

Oh yeah. Harper & company got ol' Paul on the ropes. That being said I'd be more interested in a break down of the numbers. If the Torys win, there's no way they'll carry a majority if they can't win majorities in either Quebec or Ontario.

We know they're not going to win a majority, or even a significant minority of Quebec's seats and Toronto is still Liberal friendly so that leaves them in a tight spot.

Couple of weeks to go and it's starting to get fun.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Oh yeah. Harper & company got ol' Paul on the ropes. That being said I'd be more interested in a break down of the numbers. If the Torys win, there's no way they'll carry a majority if they can't win majorities in either Quebec or Ontario.

We know they're not going to win a majority, or even a significant minority of Quebec's seats and Toronto is still Liberal friendly so that leaves them in a tight spot.

Couple of weeks to go and it's starting to get fun.

According to today's papers, he could carry Ontario but would be shut out of Toronto.

Furthermore he could win as many as 8 seats in Quebec. Thats the shocking part. Yet, until his pronouncement that he favoured greater autonomy for Quebec on international matters, they were destined to compete with the rhinocerous party. Oddly, Granting more autonomy to Quebec (ie.: meech)is what completely erroded the core base of the Progressive Conservative and gave rise to the reform party/Alliance/Conservatives. It shoudl be interesting to see how this plays out in the years ahead.

[northboys]

Just now at the Subway on Bank St. I was buying my lunch and there... in line... standing in front of me... was a soldier.

In our cities.

In Canada.

A soldier.

He seemed to be ordering the six-inch ham and turkey.

With chipotle sauce.

In Canada.

We're not making this stuff up.

http://weblogs.macleans.ca/paulwells/

[shaku_bert]

I just CANNOT believe Harper will win a majority. The Liberals will pull something dirty off and they'll squeak back in.
BTW did anyone see that CBC story where the Toronto uber-Liberal chick came out to Alberta to what kind of hill-billies vote conservative? My first reaction to her was "what an arrogant c**t" when she said Torontonian were like adults and they had reign in the teen-age - like Albertans. Then I just sort discovered that she was stupid.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by shaku_bert

I just CANNOT believe Harper will win a majority. The Liberals will pull something dirty off and they'll squeak back in.



Somehow, I don't think so. Unlike the type of competitions that we here are more familiar with, momentum is much very hard to change. There are seldom hail Mary passes you can call on or far that matter late foul in the in the box with a mexican referee named Archundia during election campaigns.

[Cheeta]

Agreed there. Momentum this late can be real tricky, that's why poll numbers need to be realy looked at carefully.

A worse case scenario for the Conservatives (and the NDP) is that "Anybody but The Conservatives" strategic vote. I think a lot of people would stomach a Tory minority goverment but the idea of a majority will drive people into the Liberal camp if they feel their vote can make the difference there. Don't discount it. Especially in southern Ontario and BC.

I think to a lesser degree the "I'm pissed off at the Liberals and showing it" percentage which will include some soft-C/soft-L voters shouldn't be ignored either. Reports of Conservative majorities will scare some of those into Martin land.

If Martin's smart he'll just keep hammering away with the Harper Boogieman theme.

If Harper's smart he'll keep his gob shut on unpopular policies (US missle defence for an example; Ouch) and keep hammering away with the Liberal Fat-Cat themes.

If Layton's smart he won't give up his day job. (Watched the debate the other day and this is a guy way in over his head).

If Duceppe is smart he can go to Hell.

P.S. Eight seats for the Conservatives in Quebec would be HUGE. I ain't holding my breath, but they'll get a couple. Maybe.

P.S.S. Am kinda surprised Martin hasn't be playing the "We've purged the bad apples from the Liberal party" song and dance (ie Jean C. and his friends).

[Blue and White Army]

Oddly enough, as an anglophone from the other side of Canada from Quebec, I actually agree with much of what Duceppe says.

The other day he was saying the Quebecois are different from the rest of Canadians - not better, just different. I fully agreed. In fact, I think a lot of anglophone Canadians are quite different from one another.

But on cue, Martin went off his head, saying "I'm a Quebecker, but I have the same values as people from Nova Scotia or BC". Screamed of reactionism to counter anything the BQ had to say.

Canada's a state, but not a nation state. Our country really isn't based upon a nationality anymore, and that's fine. Those who understand this realise "Canadian" isn't some homogenous label that can be stuck on all of us. And that's fine - since we're not a nation state, it doesn't make Canada any weaker that there is significant difference among us.

Just thought it was funny how Martin was panicking and trying to assert how we're all really the same. Does anyone actually believe that?

[JayWay]

quote:Originally posted by Blue and White Army

Oddly enough, and an anglophone from the other side of Canada from Quebec, I actually agree with much of what Duceppe says.

The other day he was saying the Quebecois are different from the rest of Canadians - not better, just different. I fully agreed. In fact, I think a lot of anglophone Canadians are quite different from one another.

But on cue, Martin went off his head, saying "I'm a Quebecker, but I have the same values as people from Nova Scotia or BC". Screamed of reactionism to counter anything the BQ had to say.

Canada's a state, but not a nation state. Our country really isn't based upon a nationality anymore, and that's fine. Those who understand this realise "Canadian" isn't some homogenous label that can be stuck on all of us. And that's fine - since we're not a nation state, it doesn't make Canada any weaker that there is significant difference among us.

Just thought it was funny how Martin was panicking and trying to assert how we're all really the same. Does anyone actually believe that?


Is there any country in the world that believs that?

Canadians seem to believe that we have a monopoly on regonalism in the world. Just the opposite. Go to Italy and ask the average citizen how he/she identifies themself. Chances are if you're in Sicily, they'll say Sicilian. If you're in Rome, they'll say Roman.

Go to France and ask the same question. In Marseille they'll tell you they identify with Marseille above all. They even have a phrase for it: Fier d'être Marseillais. In Paris, Parisian first - French second.

Having browsed a few number of Liverpool boards, I can tell you that there's a number of Scousers out there that would rather have nothing to do with England.

And I don't think I have to mention the divisions Spain deals with on a daily basis.

Regionalism is alive and well in all of these nations. Yet no one in their right mind would suggest either of these are somehow devoid of a national culture/identity.

The point is Canada is the rule, not the exception. And the idea that regional differences somehow undermine any type of national cultural development is absurd.

This myth has always been core to the Separatist argument. The battle for identity between Federalists and Separatists in the province has never been a case of "Canadian vs. Quebecois." The battle instead takes the form of a dualistic identity - Quebeker first, but a proud Canadian nonetheless - vs. the Separatist claim that one can not be both - you are either Quebecker or a Canadian; oen eliminates the other. The Federalist argument is best summed up by the phrase used by Jean Chretien (one of the most ardent Federalists of the modern era and a man who dedicated his time as PM to developing Canadian pride): Le Québec est ma maison; Le Canada est mon pays.

[Blue and White Army]

I had to translate that with Babelfish - certainly Vancouver is my house!

[Jarrek]

quote:According to today's papers, he could carry Ontario but would be shut out of Toronto.

I don't think it will happen in my riding of Etobicoke Lakeshore as I think it will be the first one to swing conservative in TO.

[River City]

What the hell happened?

I'm out of the country for 2 weeks and when I come back Harper is kicking ass in the polls? Holy crap! I can't believe Reform 3 might actually win....

[argh1]

Yeah, and the snowball of being on the winning side is taking effect.
The three Moncton ridings, Moncton, Beausejour and Fundy Royal (okay Fundy is suburbs of western Moncton, Kings County and Saint John eastern suburbs....what map maker made up this seat?) have swung towards the PC's oops Reform, oops, Alliance, oops again Conservative. If you want funding you gotta be on the winning side right?

[River City]

quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I always wonder why men cheat with women who are less attractive than their wives. I can understand if you are cheating with a babe and it is hard to resist the temptation but I know quite a few guys who cheat with women who don't look half as attractive as their wives and wouldn't tempt me as a single man in the least.


The reason men do it? Because even if you hooked up with the hottest woman on earth, over time, she would get on your nerves. Nagging about how much time you spend with soccer, blah, blah, blah...

So while their wives might look attractive, to them the men they're with, they are far from it. So when another woman comes along....

[Grizzly]

quote:Originally posted by River City


quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I always wonder why men cheat with women who are less attractive than their wives. I can understand if you are cheating with a babe and it is hard to resist the temptation but I know quite a few guys who cheat with women who don't look half as attractive as their wives and wouldn't tempt me as a single man in the least.


The reason men do it? Because even if you hooked up with the hottest woman on earth, over time, she would get on your nerves. Nagging about how much time you spend with soccer, blah, blah, blah...

So while their wives might look attractive, to them the men they're with, they are far from it. So when another woman comes along....


Are you saying that less attractive women nag less than attractive ones? Hasn't been my experience. Or do you mean at some point they all nag you so much you get fed up and go for what is available? I know this is an election thread but if River City can explain Bill and Monica then we can all go on with our lives again.

[River City]

Nah...they all nag the same. But after years of nagging from Hillary, poor Bill needed the change in scenery.

Besides, it's a widespread assumption in Washington that Hillary may have had more tail (of the female persuasion) than Bill. And this is assumed by Democats who liked the Clintons, not just the flaky Republicans.

[BrennanFan]

quote:Originally posted by River City


quote:Originally posted by Grizzly

I always wonder why men cheat with women who are less attractive than their wives. I can understand if you are cheating with a babe and it is hard to resist the temptation but I know quite a few guys who cheat with women who don't look half as attractive as their wives and wouldn't tempt me as a single man in the least.


The reason men do it? Because even if you hooked up with the hottest woman on earth, over time, she would get on your nerves. Nagging about how much time you spend with soccer, blah, blah, blah...

So while their wives might look attractive, to them the men they're with, they are far from it. So when another woman comes along....

as my cousin once told me, the only thing better than p*ssy, is new p*ssy

[shaku_bert]

We are on the eve of a regime change.

I wonder how ungracious the liberals will be in losing? On the day the Tories move across to sit on the governing side of the house I can imagine Paul Martin clinging to his bench by his finger tips screaming, "No! You can't do this to me! Ruling Canada is MY BIRTHRITE!!!!"

Mwaa ha ha ha!

Oh come on all you lefties. It won't be that bad under the tories. You might even like it. Just give yourself up to the darkside.

Time to put on my brown shirt and jackboots and goose-step off to the polling station to do my civic duty!

[Daniel]

As long as it stays minority to keep it in check.

Paul Martin's finished. He went from majority to minority to opposition.

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by shaku_bert

We are on the eve of a regime change.

I wonder how ungracious the liberals will be in losing? On the day the Tories move across to sit on the governing side of the house I can imagine Paul Martin clinging to his bench by his finger tips screaming, "No! You can't do this to me! Ruling Canada is MY BIRTHRITE!!!!"


Paul Martin doing his best Howard Dean impression.

[Massive Attack]

I just finished doing the deed.

Voted for a fringe party in a riding with a guaranteed Liberal win.

[Former Champ]

I saw the most offensive thing today. A buncha women standing on the corner waving signs saying "WOMEN SHOULD VOTE FOR WOMEN".

**** **** ***!!!

That's one of the least democratic and most bigotted and sexist thing I have ever seen. Lucky for them I was on the bus, or the cops woulda come.

I'm going to vote right now. I got my Osama bin Laden t-shirt on. Just having one more democracy joint. Haven't decided if I'm gonna draw a bunny or a kitty on my ballot.

[Cheeta]

Apparently you're suppose to only use ONE "X".

Just got back from the polling station. Rain hasn't harmed the turn out any. Can't speak for the other ballot boxes at that station but the one where I cast my lot there couldn't have been more than a half dozen names not crossed off their lists. And my names virtually on the last sheet. Pretty impressive.

Should make for great TV tonight.

[sKriSh]

Just came back from voting (Calgary Nose Hill), polls are pretty packed. Now it's time for the important stuff, battle of Alberta Part 6 GO FLAMES GO.

[Former Champ]

I was very dissappointed that there weren't snacks.

[Cheeta]

Well looks like Winnipeg is leaning left again, with NDP or Liberal candidates carry most of the ridings. Looks like Smith will carry Kildonan-St.Paul with a minority vote for the Conservatives, but not as strongly as you'd expect given the riding covers some of Winnipeg's wealthiest burroughs but she's pulled it off so bully for her. Alcock isn't out of the woods yet but I'll be surprised if he isn't elected at the end of the day, but it's still close.

Fletcher's been re-elected in Charleswood-Saint James. A hold for the Conservatives for the former military man.

So nothing realy changes in Winnipeg at all. Or in Manitoba overall really. Sort of against the grain of things nationaly, even if ever so slightly.

Funny isn't it, how urban and sub-urban voters seem to be more willing to look left than right when compared to their rural counterparts. At least outside of Alberta. I wonder why this is the case?

Speaking of urban vs rural voting patterns that twat Vic Toews was on a few minutes ago. For those not familiar with Mr.Toews political history they should note that this member of the Conservative brain trust was driven out of urban politics to run in what we call a "Yellow Dog" riding in southern Manitoba. Don't get me wrong, Toews is as smart a politition as they come, but not a fellow who's views allow for election in anything resembling a swing riding. Quite the system we have in this country.

[Cheeta]

Speaking of our electorial system The Venerable, Ed Broadbent just blurbed out a bit about this "proportional representation in parliment" business.

Is it just me or is it allways those at the bottom of the list who speak fondly of proportional represention?

I mean it is a pretty funny system this one we use. I'll bet you less than half of the MPs elected tonight will carry anything near a majority of the votes in their respective ridings, but that said what's really the alternative? Proportional representation?

I don't think so. I'm more comfortable voting for the represenative of my riding then I am for voting along party lines and "pecking order" lists.

Run off elections? Used to think this wasn't such a bad idea except that study after study has shown that this system doesn't increase participation by defeated candidates supporters in the subsequent run off elections. That being the case, what's the point? As an example if those who voted NDP wouldn't vote at all in a run off election where the Liberal and Conservative candidates are the only spots on the ballot then why even bother? Just use the existing system with 1st past the finish line.

[DoyleG]

Try ranking the candidates and letting the votes fall as they may.

[Cheeta]

So here's another out-loud question, besides that idiot Layton who else wins tonight?

Not Harper. He's 33 seats short of a majority and he managed that in the best possible world. The Conservatives will enter parliment with what has to be the smallest minority goverment on record. The best advantage they'll have is that there must be some electorial fatigue so they've got more wiggle room then you'd otherwise expect. But even given that, you know if Harper & Co. have half a brain between them they'll tread very, very softly in the 24 month "sales window" they have. Which just may be just what the doctor ordered.

Not Martin. Chretien has done to him what Mulroney did to the PCs, burying him in dirty laundry. Two elections under Martin, less MPs with each one. Do the Liberals hold out for a third time lucky? Don't know about that but you never know. The final purge of Chretien hacks may finaly be completed and the Liberals can get their wind back. Or they can regress into civil war. Whichever.

Not the Bloc. THANK GAWD.

Greens got pounded pretty good too oveall. What did they loose? 50% of their vote? Take that for what it's worth.

[DoyleG]

Martin has announced he will not lead in another election.

Draw out the knives.

[Cheeta]

Perfect score for style though. Brilliantly done. I have to admit that. Ha! Bet a lot of people are wondering where was all this during the election.

Still back and forth in Winnipeg South. Alcock might be applying for poggie tomorrow morning yet!

[DoyleG]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

Perfect score for style though. Brilliantly done. I have to admit that. Ha! Bet a lot of people are wondering where was all this during the election.


I guess will be seeing the bodies of his campaign advisers wash up on beaches in the next little while.;):D

[shaku_bert]

I'm pleased the conservatives got in. I am also happy that there will only be a minority government. This will force Harper to reign in the <ahem> farther right side, ahhhh ok the loopy god squaders. I hope Harper can build a strong right of center party and that all the Jesus freaks go and join the Christian Heritage goombas.

Cheetah, I disagree with you on Harper. He really did run a good campaign. In some respects, no matter what the polls suggested, it was his election to lose but he didn't. He kept the idiots in line and kept the focus on what was the most corrupt, ethically bankrupt administration outside of Africa or south America. I never believed the calls for Tory majority or even strong minority. The Libs have been so adept at sowing a fear of the conservatives in much of the population over the last number of years that one knew that many voters could never actually go and mark an X by a Tory, no matter what they told a pollster.

I'm a little surprised at the NDP's success. I believed Layton was such an incredible ass that people would flee from the party (but I can muster nothing but disdain for limosine lefties so my view on Layton may be tainted). I just don't get what the NDP stand for sometimes. They are all over the map. But they say they're "left" and "progressive" so they capture the votes of people with axes to grind (special interest groups) and elitist *sswipes. I know too many solid NDP'ers who rail at big corporate profits but still think that they would be driving their audis if major lefty policy was the law of the land (they are the elite intelligentsia, you see). Their motto is "redistribute the wealth, just don't touch my wealth".

As for the poor showing by the Greens, I guess I'm a little bummed. I don't believe that there is any thing wrong with a party that demands that private enterprise be accountable for its use of natural resources and demands accountability from those who effect our world but only so long as that party doesn't embrace socialist crap. The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive, I believe.

Again, I'm happy for the CHANGE. But as a socially liberal person who supports same sex rights, abortion rights, ets, I'm glad that there isn't any real possibility of any major social policy back tracking. The Liberals were so morally bankrupt that I really just hoped they would get their butts served to themselves on a plate.

[Sigma]

quote:Originally posted by shaku_bert

I'm glad that there isn't any real possibility of any major social policy back tracking.

Agreed.

[juaninho]

Well, we'll be back at the polling booths in around 2 years or so. Maybe less.
With Martin stepping down, the Liberals should try to reinvigorate the party by finally saying goodbye to many from the Chretien and brief Martin years. Should be interesting. Wouldn't mind 'Turbot Tobin ' making a run for the party helm.

[Daniel]

Dude, Layton rides a *bike*.

We should have decriminalized weed when we had the chance, dagnammit.

[Cheeta]

I'm didn't mean to say that Harper didn't run a good campain. Quite the opposite. Thought it was handled very well as opposed to what the Liberals ran which was pretty helter-skelter in my view. And that's just my point. It was all smooth sailing and blue skys for Team Harper and still they couldn't manage any sort of convincing win. That's got to be hard to take as you got to suspect just as you've mentioned, that there is a real nervous population out there who see Canada as a liberal Canada and they just don't trust the Conservatives enough to keep it that way in spirit.

Changing that perception (if it really exists) is for later. They've won, congrat's and for the good of all concearned I hope they manage a to do a grand job.

Should be fun. There are a few more Ontario and Quebec Conservatives in that caucus and they will get plum treatment in cabinet. We'll see how long that's viewed as being okay over in those loyal Western ridings.

[shaku_bert]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta

I'm didn't mean to say that Harper didn't run a good campain. Quite the opposite. Thought it was handled very well as opposed to what the Liberals ran which was pretty helter-skelter in my view. And that's just my point. It was all smooth sailing and blue skys for Team Harper and still they couldn't manage any sort of convincing win. That's got to be hard to take as you got to suspect just as you've mentioned, that there is a real nervous population out there who see Canada as a liberal Canada and they just don't trust the Conservatives enough to keep it that way in spirit.



Gotcha and I agree with your assessment.

[Free kick]

quote:Originally posted by Cheeta


Run off elections? Used to think this wasn't such a bad idea except that study after study has shown that this system doesn't increase participation by defeated candidates supporters in the subsequent run off elections. That being the case, what's the point? As an example if those who voted NDP wouldn't vote at all in a run off election where the Liberal and Conservative candidates are the only spots on the ballot then why even bother? Just use the existing system with 1st past the finish line.


The best example that I can think of in favour of some sort of run off is Oshawa. Oshawa went to the Conservatives. Yet, its a union town where people work in the Auto plant. It was once represented by Ed Broadbent and an area where just about everyone cusses, is rude to stangers and drinks beer on their porch wearing those white tank top undershirts made famous by Sonny Corleone in the Godfather. Ok I am exagerrating but I think you see my point. This is not what I would describe a Tory riding. Yet they squeek in again because the Liberals and NDP run neck and neck.

I know that true run offs are not logistically possible for the reasons that you mentioned but why wouldn't it be possible to have some sort of system whereby electors can enter a second choice on their ballot. If a clear majority isn't won on the first choice candidate, then maybe incorportate the second choice votes.