I hope we are knocked out. [Archive]

Champs

07-14-2003, 08:54 PM

every single game you guys criticize. man you be in holgers shoes lets see what u can do. You guys expect too much. You guys always have something negative to say. OOhh holger should pick aguair, or jazic. I think he should know what he's doing. He's a professional Coach. meanwhile all you so called coaches probablly cant even coach a rep team. It looks easy, you think its easy for holger to call up national team players. You think their all available, and besides that look at it this way "in most eurpean countries the players would die to play for their country, in Canada its the coach would die to get there players to play for their country". I think Holger is doing a great job at what he has. Thats the problem in Canada not the players, not the coaches but the fans. You guys critcize everything, you got to give these guys a chance. go watch an a-league game. no right they all suck, well let me tell u one thing how do u expect them to get better with no money. thats all i have to say!!!
GO CANADA GO!!!

Sigma

07-14-2003, 09:05 PM

quote:Originally posted by Champs

You guys expect too much.

I certainly expect us to beat Cuba.

Maybe next time.[V]

-------------------------
Sigma do toho!

Paddy

07-14-2003, 09:15 PM

Gee...thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Did I blame Holger in my post? No. Have I ever said that Holger should pick Augiar or Jazic? No. I have never seen Jaizc play and have only seen Augiar play once years ago. I would though like to know why they don't get a look at least.

I want us to get knocked out legitimatley so that the CSA wakes up and realizes that something needs to be done. I.e. why aren't our best players showing up? I think it is more than club commitment. Also, why aren't we playing more warm ups? How can Jamaica afford more games than we can? I want Canada out before we are seriously hummiliated. Do you remember our 8-0 drubbing at the hands of Mexico in the GC. This team, if it was to get that far, could suffer the same fate.

I am a fan of the team, but this does not mean that I have to follow blindly.

If we can't assemble a better squad than this I do not think we should even bother playing in this tournament.

Paul

The Ref

07-14-2003, 10:13 PM

quote:Originally posted by Champs

... man you be in holgers shoes lets see what u can do.

If I was in holger's shoes, I would quit and let a real coach do the job.

PortoMarco

07-14-2003, 10:48 PM

Aguiar would be very welcome in the Canadian midfield. He's one of the better players in the Portuguese league, even if he does play for the hated Benfica. He's much better than what we currently have in the defensive midfield. Jazic, can't comment. Never seen him play.

Our biggest vice? Our passing and first touch on the ball is simply horrid. I've never seen a time with a worse first touch than Canada. It's pitiful. Ohhhh....how much a patriotic ********** and Radz would help this team....

www.fcporto-online.com

Krammerhead

07-14-2003, 11:04 PM

quote:Originally posted by Champs

every single game you guys criticize.

Every single game someone responds by making excuses like you.

"As nothing in this life that I've been trying
could equal or surpass the art of dying"-George Harrison

DoyleG

07-14-2003, 11:19 PM

quote:Originally posted by Paddy

Gee...thanks for putting words in my mouth.

Did I blame Holger in my post? No. Have I ever said that Holger should pick Augiar or Jazic? No. I have never seen Jaizc play and have only seen Augiar play once years ago. I would though like to know why they don't get a look at least.

Maybe you should consider that Augiar likely considered his club carrer more important than his country. Same for Jazic as well, given the fact Jazic is still open to play for Croatia but may have turned them down as well.

quote:Originally posted by Paddy

I want us to get knocked out legitimatley so that the CSA wakes up and realizes that something needs to be done. I.e. why aren't our best players showing up? I think it is more than club commitment. Also, why aren't we playing more warm ups? How can Jamaica afford more games than we can? I want Canada out before we are seriously hummiliated. Do you remember our 8-0 drubbing at the hands of Mexico in the GC. This team, if it was to get that far, could suffer the same fate.

Our players are more patroitic than you think. Unless your European or South American, your scrwed in many ways in getting a position in Europe.

It helps Jamacia that some of their opponents wave the fees or reduce them dramatically. Having weathly Jamacians abroad that can help finance these friendlies. Why don't you talk to the likes of Stronach if their willing to put up the big bucks for a couple of friendlies.

You should see how the rest of CONCACAf faired against Mexico in '93. They played their games in Azteca for crying out loud.

You also seemed to forget how Canada rebounded from that loss by playing tough against the Aussies and in those pre-USA '94 friendlies.

quote:Originally posted by Paddy

I am a fan of the team, but this does not mean that I have to follow blindly.

If we can't assemble a better squad than this I do not think we should even bother playing in this tournament.

You should notice how not playing in '98 further damaged the MNT.

Were far better off now than we were at that time.

Loud Mouth Soup

07-14-2003, 11:37 PM

Were far better off now than we were at that time.

Really? How so? We arent' being beaten AS BAD?

Don't try that one. WE sucked tonight, and we'll continue to suck so long as Hoger stays on as coach.

Sorry, but you can not convince me otherwise.

DoyleG

07-14-2003, 11:44 PM

quote:Originally posted by Loud Mouth Soup

Were far better off now than we were at that time.

Really? How so? We arent' being beaten AS BAD?

Don't try that one. WE sucked tonight, and we'll continue to suck so long as Hoger stays on as coach.

Sorry, but you can not convince me otherwise.

You seem to be a newbie so I'll cut you a bit of slack.

Things were a lot worse in '98 than they are now.

Loud Mouth Soup

07-14-2003, 11:49 PM

You seem to be a newbie so I'll cut you a bit of slack.

Here, maybe.

But....no. I was at Sportsnet's board way before you, Doyle. I prefer to keep that User Name to myself...

Jeffery S.

07-15-2003, 06:59 AM

quote:
Maybe you should consider that Augiar likely considered his club carrer more important than his country. Same for Jazic as well, given the fact Jazic is still open to play for Croatia but may have turned them down as well.

All I can say Doyle is that this is not correct. Aguiar would love the chance to play for Canada again. I know this because he has told me so.

In any case since he is on a team with many internationals on it, there would certainly be no problem for him to show up for international duty as long as we are talking about FIFA dates, which I think WC qualifying will respect.

Holger has not spoken to Fernando since December of 2001, the week he signed for Benfica. The ball is in the coach's court.

As for Jazic, he was an alternate for the Gold Cup, and was asked to come to the team after Klukowski came down injured. He refused as he was already back in Austria for the pre-season, so Atiba was called in his stead.

Canuck Oranje

07-15-2003, 07:57 AM

On and off the Band wagon we jump... Just remember Hiddink's head was demanded by the Korean press and the fans prior to the 2002 World Cup.. Now many Koreans come to Varseveld collect a small vial of soil from his birthplace.

Not saying we will ever do the same with Holger nor am I saying he is anywhere near the coach that Hiddink is.

Just that this is the Gold Cup.. We don't have our best team.. Clearly the team on the field is deficient. No matter what we think,some players really don't see the importance of this tournament (those that weren't there).

Finally again, you can't coach speed. A player has it or they don't. Although, you can cover for it some. It is a fundamental problem with the defence of this team.

Haven't seen Aguiar play for years but I don't think he addresses the lack of speed issue; although, he would be a far better option than Dasovic. Jazic and Nsaliwa may be the answer;but, they weren't there.

I guess we were just exposed to a flaw by a team that was simply fast and physical. The flaw has always been there but when it's Germany or Scotland, we tend to see a lot of problems. Now we need to address it. If Holger doesn't, then I will suggest it is time for another national coach.

Glenn

07-15-2003, 05:21 PM

We didn't have our best team out there, true. But when we will ever be free of injuries, suspensions, and club conflicts? We need more depth. I think we have to assume we'll always be playing short of full strength. We may be able to beat a lot of CONCACAF teams with our best players, but that's going to be a rare occurrence. Unfortunately, short of coming up with a Canadian league and a B team, I don't know how we're going to do this. We need more than sixteen players.

Canuck Oranje

07-15-2003, 06:01 PM

Depth is definitely something we need.. And I have posted here in the past that a B team may not be a bad idea. Much along the lines of the old Canadian Olympic Hockey team.. The one that created players like Pat Flatley and Kevin Dineen for the NHL ... and Ken Dryden I believe... By doing so you set the team strategy and add in some European based players from time to time.

Again, I would be far interested in watching a young inexperienced team but with great potential than watch the same old players that are coming near the end of their careers. Failure would likely be just as possible but the possibility of the odd brilliant game would be there too.

My point above had more to do with what is now more apparent than ever. Our defence, as it started on Monday, will never be even just good enough because of the group's lack of speed. Identifying the right young domestic players may help with that too.

Georgio

07-15-2003, 06:17 PM

Jeffrey S.

Do you know why Jazic was an alternate who was only called to the GoldCup after Klukowski got injured to which he declined because he was already in Austria for pre-season? Something sounds wrong there. Is it still a matter of the injury? If he is expected to be available as an alternate shouldn't he be expected to be available as a starter and given that opportunity.

Georgio

imusic

07-15-2003, 06:22 PM

Jazic never wanted to play for Canada in the past. He's more inclined to do so now but the team he plays for just got a new coach so Osziec agreed to allow him to miss the Gold Cup so that he could establish himself with the new coach. He did much the same thing for De Guzman who was in a similar situation. While the Gold Cup is important, WC qualifying is more so. I guess Holger figured he would bend on this issue so that he could have these players when WC qualification comes around. Makes sense to me.

Jeffery S.

07-15-2003, 06:28 PM

quote:Originally posted by Georgio

Jeffrey S.

Do you know why Jazic was an alternate who was only called to the GoldCup after Klukowski got injured to which he declined because he was already in Austria for pre-season? Something sounds wrong there. Is it still a matter of the injury? If he is expected to be available as an alternate shouldn't he be expected to be available as a starter and given that opportunity.

Georgio

This is to answer the two above posts re Jazic. I heard on a personal mail from someone who ocassionally has posted on the boards that Jazic was Holger's first alternate for Klukowski, but when he called Nova Scotia he'd already gone back to Austria. Atiba was the second choice, perhaps respecting that his club is in the middle of the league and in relegation spots, and that Atiba is their leading scorer, as Dandal has posted on the Sweden thread.

This perhaps makes sense considering that his team Rapid starts the league tomorrow no less, vs. Pasching (who play Intertoto on the weekend). But given the club committment, even if he is still injured or hurting (we'll see if he plays tomorrow), why was he listed as an alternate if his club committments were such that logically he should have flat out turned down even the alternate designation?

Georgio

07-15-2003, 06:50 PM

That is the reasoning that is making me question the situation too, Jeffrey. Holger wouldn't expect Jazic to be an alternate if it is clear that he is unavailable. And Jazic, I hope would decline the alternate designation if he new he was going to be unavailable considering he was being named an alternate over other potential alternatives. And Jazic should atleast have been on the bench. I think starting over Hastings though, but it has been a while since I've seen him play.
Man, Rapid sure have been going through alot of coaches lately.

Canuck Oranje

07-15-2003, 07:06 PM

I was also under the impression from what I read that Jazic had an aggravating back injury..

PortoMarco

07-15-2003, 08:59 PM

Where Aguiar would help would be off corner kicks and winning balls in the midfield. He is one of the better DM's in Portugal and is just so so so big. The man is a beast, those Cubans would not have won **** with Aguiar in the midfield. He's that physically imposing.

www.fcporto-online.com

The Ref

07-15-2003, 11:38 PM

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

.. We don't have our best team..

Finally again, you can't coach speed. A player has it or they don't. Although, you can cover for it some. It is a fundamental problem with the defence of this team.

I don't disagree with your post. I just want to add my two cents to a couple of your comments. --we don't have our best team-- So when are we going to have our best team? what is the point of playing all these games (so few anyway) with a team that is not our best? We seem to be preparing our B team rather than our A team. Why do we embarked on a 6 year program with almighty Holger just to coach (??) our second best team. Our best players not available?, well I wonder how much of that is just simply lack of interest and convenient injuries.

Finally, about coaching speed. Yeap, you either have it or you don't. Assuming our players are motivated to run faster than the opponent. The thing is, speed is not always the solution. South and central american soccer is not necessarely fast, on the contrary it tends to be slow. Those players play smartly rather than fast, can control the ball well and look around for the best and rehersed player to pass to. They too can run fast, change pace when needed.

Cuba scored two on us and that is bad indeed. What I find worst is that we could not score any on them. Basically they won the game after their first goal.

Canuck Oranje

07-16-2003, 09:42 AM

As for not having our best team and when.. I hope for WCQ. We are a small country in soccer terms. Save our favours for the big one. You don't risk future development for a tournament like the Gold Cup. Nsaliwa, De Guzman, and Brennan were especially left in Europe because it wasn't worth fighting with clubs over their release. De Guzman playing regularly with Hannover will do more for the Canadian program than us making it to the final of the Gold Cup (we've already done that). I don't know when these players will all be playing at the same time. But if we are going to force the issue with clubs it should be when the stakes are highest.

Re: Speed. I was not talking about style of play here. I am talking about having that gear when it is needed. The Dutch always covered Koeman with Rijkaard (normally an attacking midfielder). Stam was criticised for being too slow after he was beaten a couple of times in the 98 world cup..

My key point is this. From my observations, the best teams in the world normally have their fastest players on the outside with the occasional exception. If you don't have speed as a fullback in any of the big leagues of Europe you won't last long. The point is players get beaten even at the highest level, the key is to have the ability to minimize the impact.

This has nothing to do with style of play.. But Roberto Carlos, I bet is one of the fastest Brazilians on the pitch. And their central defenders could probably beat our fullbacks in a foot race. Yes they like to stroke the ball around in a lazy fashion sometimes but when speed is needed they got it. I don't see our defence having that now.

I guess seeing the Cuban beat Hastings so cleanly without being contested really brought that message home for me.

Gordon

07-16-2003, 10:00 AM

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje
I guess seeing the Cuban beat Hastings so cleanly without being contested really brought that message home for me.

Are you referring to the second goal? The problem there was not really so much Hasting's speed but his atrocious chesting of the ball. He was flat footed and the attacker coming at him with speed. It would have been no contest even if it was Donovan Bailey instead of Hastings. In truth, it was a bit of a lazy switch from Fenwick (althoguh I am not pining this on him), and as I was watching the game, I could see that it would be trouble and the ball was not going to arrive much before the cuban attacker even if Hastings had handled it cleanly. I thought loss of possession, or at least a hoof up field was inevitable. Actually, If we had any maturity in our game, Fenwick would have put it on the ground to DeVos who would have moved it on the ground either to Hastings, or back towards Fenwick depending on what the cuban forwards were up to. That clip plays over and over in my head... But really, the fault on Hastings was his touch rather than his speed.

The opinions expressed above are just that.

Canuck Oranje

07-16-2003, 10:28 AM

Well, differing opinions make life interesting. The second goal was atrocious. Better ball skills always helps. I disagree with your assessment however that better speed on the part of Hastings would not have made a difference on the second goal. I didn't see the gap between the ball carrier and Hastings close much (and Roberto Carlos would have made it more difficult for the Cuban forward after being beaten). But hey, that's easy to say from here..

It was that incident that had me watching defensive speed and quickness later in the game.

I stand by my general assessment that overall speed and quickness of the defence is a limiting factor for the success of this team (fullbacks included). However, I don't disagree that others contributed specifically to the brutal nature of that one play and the goal that resulted.

Gordon

07-16-2003, 10:48 AM

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

Well, differing opinions make life interesting. The second goal was atrocious. Better ball skills always helps. I disagree with your assessment however that better speed on the part of Hastings would not have made a difference on the second goal. I didn't see the gap between the ball carrier and Hastings close much (and Roberto Carlos would have made it more difficult for the Cuban forward after being beaten). But hey, that's easy to say from here..

It was that incident that had me watching defensive speed and quickness later in the game.

I stand by my general assessment that overall speed and quickness of the defence is a limiting factor for the success of this team (fullbacks included). However, I don't disagree that others contributed specifically to the brutal nature of that one play and the goal that resulted.

And I am not disagreeing with your overall assessment regarding speed. Because your are absolutely correct. Did you tape the game? I didn't so I can't go back to check my impression of the play. I see Hastings as a fringe player in a perfect world. Mostly on the bench, spot starter, etc. etc.

The opinions expressed above are just that.

Canuck Oranje

07-16-2003, 11:41 AM

I need to watch it again too (son was supposed to have captured it on the computer).

I didn't post this but from what I could understand from the Hannover website, De Guzman was actually was playing left back against Feyenoord when he scored (was shifted there). But I am not confident of my German.. or online translators.

07-16-2003, 11:56 AM

quote:Originally posted by Canuck Oranje

I need to watch it again too (son was supposed to have captured it on the computer).

I didn't post this but from what I could understand from the Hannover website, De Guzman was actually was playing left back against Feyenoord when he scored (was shifted there). But I am not confident of my German.. or online translators.

Not quite. See my post below (Canucks in Germany update).

Free the banana cream 3!

Mimglow

07-16-2003, 11:59 AM

Canuck Oranje:

Hallo!

Would it be possible for me to get my hands on that mpeg? Maybe through Kazaa or what not?

Mimglow, Ottawa
_________________________
You are the witness of change
And to counteract
We gotta take the power back
Rage Against The Machine

Canuck Oranje

07-16-2003, 12:03 PM

I still have your request for the Germany Mpeg too. and once I confirm with my techno geek son that I in fact have the Mpeg. See what I can do...

Mimglow

07-16-2003, 12:07 PM

Thanks Canuck Oranje. It would be greatly appreciated since I was there and don't have a copy of the match.

Mimglow, Ottawa
_________________________
You are the witness of change
And to counteract
We gotta take the power back
Rage Against The Machine

Gian-Luca

07-16-2003, 03:01 PM

Bottom line is we need some new defenders, in particular somebody other than Fenwick. That must be our top priority heading into WCQ. We give up too many goals & do so too easily. Often the goals are a direct result of an individual mistake by a defender. I just hope Holger agrees with that assessment.

Even the wolf can learn. Even the sheep can turn. Even the frog can become at last the prince. - Peter Hammill, Over (1977)